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« 2018-12-07

2018-12-08

2018-12-09 »

Nick Message Date
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squeakytoy Hey all. Anyone here using AWS? I am going to start a new web project, but I see AWS only supports Java 8. Im curious to hear any thoughts, if stupid to start a new project with Java 8 now, or maybe find another cloud system that supports 11 [01:06]
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metrixx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history [10:51]
metrixx here it only says Java SE.. it doesn't mention of Java EE. can you clarify that for me? [10:51]
Diablo-D3 java ee isnt a version of java [10:51]
metrixx se is? [10:53]
metrixx so, there isn't any difference between se and ee versions, right? [10:53]
Diablo-D3 you're asking the wrong question [10:55]
Diablo-D3 java ee is a set of APIs that are implemented by a java ee application server, which runs on java. [10:55]
Diablo-D3 and a lot of those apis also have a use outside of java ee, and java ee is also not the only way to do this [10:55]
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Diablo-D3 java ee versions aren't even locked to a particular version of java, they just have minimums [10:58]
metrixx hmmm [10:58]
Diablo-D3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Platform,_Enterprise_Edition [11:00]
Diablo-D3 read the whole thing. [11:00]
peaceguy hi metrixx :) [11:02]
metrixx Diablo-D3, thank you. i am really trying to understand java versions and how they prepare releases really.. [11:03]
metrixx peaceguy, hi :) [11:03]
peaceguy hi :) [11:03]
peaceguy yes java has a lot of versions [11:04]
peaceguy i don't even bother understanding lol [11:04]
peaceguy one time i asked here how to install java on linux [11:04]
peaceguy openjdk8-jdk not -jre lol [11:04]
peaceguy sorry about that [11:04]
Diablo-D3 peaceguy: and the answer you should have gotten was consult your distro [11:04]
peaceguy true [11:05]
peaceguy sorry i ask stupid questions [11:05]
metrixx currently Jakarta EE.. really? [11:08]
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Diablo-D3 yup [11:13]
Diablo-D3 oracle dropped java ee development and handed it off to the community [11:13]
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Diablo-D3 jakarta is the capital of indonesia, which used to be known as java and also starts with j [11:14]
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Diablo-D3 theres lots of java names that involve such stuff [11:15]
Diablo-D3 also lots of java names that are coffee puns [11:16]
mib_mib hi all - i'm currently on java 8 - I'm wondering, based on performance, ease of upgrade, and the new Java support model - (and not wanting to pay for commercial updates) - what should I upgrade to? [11:16]
mib_mib Is it worth upgrading to java 9? or should i try to jump further to java 10 or otherwise? [11:17]
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Diablo-D3 mib_mib: the way oracle does it now is they close public releases to everything but the newest version [11:17]
Diablo-D3 and they bang out a new version alarmingly quickly [11:17]
metrixx is java an alias of jakarta? [11:17]
metrixx i learned too much today :) [11:18]
metrixx and probably most of developers are from indonesia [11:18]
Diablo-D3 metrixx: no, jakarta is the capital of the country formerly known as java. [11:18]
Diablo-D3 no, java was developed by a company from california that probably was largely white. [11:19]
peaceguy java is an island? [11:19]
peaceguy i thought it is [11:19]
Diablo-D3 peaceguy: its an archipelago [11:19]
peaceguy sorry [11:19]
nokdoot Diablo-D3: Do you play D3? :> haha [11:19]
peaceguy yes i remember now [11:19]
Diablo-D3 nokdoot: no, my nick predates blizzard entertainment, co. [11:19]
mib_mib Diablo-D3: so - the only real option is to keep with the latest release then? [11:20]
nokdoot Hahaha I se [11:20]
nokdoot see * [11:20]
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Diablo-D3 mib_mib: you have the right idea, but 9 and 10 are no longer available, its now 11 as of september [11:20]
mib_mib I guess i'm wondering if others have switched to other openjdk builds, and how they compare to the oracle jdk build [11:20]
Diablo-D3 openjdk and oracle builds have been effectively identical the whole time [11:21]
mib_mib Diablo-D3: what do you mean 'no longer available' ? [11:21]
Diablo-D3 as in oracle no longer offers their build nor updates for it [11:21]
Diablo-D3 java is now ran on the two branch model, like 20 years after the fact. [11:21]
Diablo-D3 so we went from 1-7 being released every so often, to a new version every 6? months [11:21]
mib_mib oh wow you're right i thought they would at least have a downloads page [11:22]
mib_mib so, if i want to upgrade, i have to go from java 8-> java 11? [11:22]
Diablo-D3 yup [11:22]
Diablo-D3 or stay with 8 [11:22]
mib_mib i imagine a lot of dependencies will break right? [11:22]
Diablo-D3 no [11:22]
Diablo-D3 and the ones that "do" were just taken out of the jdk, so you just readd them [11:23]
metrixx hmmmm [11:23]
Diablo-D3 mib_mib: 8 has free updates until I think 2020 [11:23]
Diablo-D3 11 is the new LTS branch, so staying with 11 wont be an issue, you just need to get there [11:23]
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surial mib_mib: um, yes. there are tons of libs that only work on 8. [11:24]
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mib_mib surial: presumably unless they use 'native' java apis or what not, then they will still work right? [11:24]
surial mib_mib: you can migrate to 11 if you like, but, two points: [A] don't go with openjdk; openjdk11 has a few weeks left, then it'll be officially unsupported and undownloadable. [B] don't go with oraclejdk either, that costs money. [C] go with AdoptOpenJDK or wait for Amazon coretto to have an 11 or 12 release. [11:24]
Diablo-D3 surial: it depends entirely on what he has FOR deps. [11:24]
surial mib_mib: no, they probably won't. [11:24]
Diablo-D3 surial: also wait, what, openjdk is _removing_ 11? [11:25]
mib_mib surial: oh, curious why's that? [11:25]
surial mib_mib: your basic java is still the same between 8 and 11 but so much changed, about 20%+ of all major deps run into issues at the very least. And given that major deps themselves have deps, I'd say 80%+ of real world projects need to at the very least mess around with updating versions of deps. [11:25]
surial mib_mib: why's what? [11:25]
surial Diablo-D3: yes, of course. just like how openjdk9 and openjdk10 no longer exist. openjdk11 won't exist either in a few weeks, when openjdk12 is released. [11:25]
Diablo-D3 surial: openjdk doesnt track lts releases? [11:26]
surial Diablo-D3: depends on what you mean by 'openjdk'. [11:26]
surial <insert bill clinton joke here> [11:26]
surial Diablo-D3: openjdk-the-source-repo is of course there and tagged. It has 9 and 10 tags too. [11:26]
surial openjdk-the-binary-release? No. [11:26]
Diablo-D3 well isnt that irritating [11:26]
Diablo-D3 so in march, all the 11 binaries go poof [11:27]
surial It has versions, yes, and oracle, which owns and manages openjdk-the-binary-release, will aggressively delete that binary and all pages that mention it soon, just like they did for openjdk9 and 10. [11:27]
surial whatever you downloaded will continue to work fine.. and not update. [11:27]
surial which, if there's a security issue, is bad. [11:27]
surial Diablo-D3: hence why YOU SHOULD NOT FUCKING USE THOSE. [11:27]
surial AdoptOpenJDK folks. [11:27]
surial If you aren't using that you're an idiot. [11:27]
Diablo-D3 is adoptopenjdk's binaries autoupdating yet? [11:27]
surial those binaries do not go poof and they will either be supported (as in, you get security updates), or, if the team is incapable of writing the needed updates and nobody else contributes a patch, they'll tell you to move on. [11:28]
surial JDK binaries haven't ever auto-updated. [11:28]
surial That was a JRE thing. [11:28]
Diablo-D3 I mean yeah, but I assume they're shipping a JRE too [11:28]
surial But at least there's a 'channel'. newsgroups you can follow and all that jazz. Also, there _WILL BE_ updates. If there's a massive securtity leak in say, openjdk10, oracle will neither acknowledge, tell you, or update those. [11:28]
surial no, JREs do not exist. [11:28]
surial anymore, that is. [11:28]
surial The concept of JRE went away with 9. there is no JRE9 and there never will be, nor will there ever be a JDK-X, where X is 9 or more. [11:29]
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Diablo-D3 so how the hell do you ship an app that uses java? [11:29]
surial jilink. [11:29]
surial which makes a tiny little cut-to-size JRE for you with just the bits your java app actually needs. The onus of keeping that JRE-esque concept up to date? On you. Not oracle. [11:30]
surial how? Uhhh... I dunno. write a sparql client or whatever. [11:30]
Diablo-D3 Jesus christ, Java is fucking shit now. [11:30]
surial not oracle's problem. It's rough but I get it. It's not like users were keeping their JRE up to date and nobody likes fucking around with that. All major desktop java apps I _EVER_ met shipped their own JRE anyway, because customers don't know how to install a JRE, or if they do know, they have the annoying tendency to, ya know, update that fucker, and then it's a version of java your app won't run with. [11:31]
surial Diablo-D3: no, oracle is finally waking up and smelling the roses. [11:31]
surial java on the desktop is shit, was shit, probably will always be shit. So what? [11:31]
surial Nothing changed. [11:31]
surial If you were using a JRE to run java on server, that was dumb. You should use a JDK to run on server. JDKs have nice things, like the java compiler, which can be handy for jshell purposes, you can compile on server, and more crucially use jmap and co to debug your shit. [11:32]
surial The point of JREs were desktops, and both [A] java on desktop sucked anyway, [B] customers were not really figuring out how to manage their JRE install and it was stupid to demand it of them, [C] desktop OS makers didn't wanna do it and weren't going to change their mind on this, [D] most deployments shipped their own JRE anyway. [11:32]
surial Might as well embrace the [D] model and make it better, which is exactly what jilink is. [11:33]
Diablo-D3 so then, silly question... how is intellij currently built? [11:33]
surial j8, like 90% of the java ecosystem. [11:33]
surial Which gets us alllllllll the way back to mib_mib's question: Does shit break if you go to 11? And the answer is: Yeah, probably. The change is a little jarring, not everything's gotten there yet. [11:34]
Diablo-D3 just lights the whole goddamned thing on fire [11:34]
surial intellij should really get in the habit of shipping a little JRE (hopefully jilinked!) with intellij. That way 'install a JRE first' is not part of the installation instruction for intellij, and installing a bad one doesn't break shit / make your computer a security leak. [11:35]
surial they already have auto-update stuff going on. [11:35]
surial That'd be a much better model. [11:35]
surial (and the JDK you use to build your intellij projects should definitely be fully seperate from whatever java runtime is actually running intellij-the-application) [11:35]
mib_mib surial: okay new question - i want to upgrade for performance reasons (mainly compact string support) - is the answer still the same? AFAIK i have to upgrade to get a lot of the new compiler options, etc [11:35]
surial if you must upgrade then it depends on what your deps are and where you wanna run the app. [11:36]
surial For example, if your answer is: "I want to run this stuff in amazon aws beanstalk" the answer is: Oh, no. Take your dreams and light em on fire, no jdk11 for you. stick with 8. [11:36]
SJr IntelliJ does ship with a JDK actually by default and it's weird because using it changes the UI significantly. [11:36]
mib_mib surial: what about their claim of LTS ("Java SE 11 (18.9 LTS) is an LTS release.") [11:37]
surial but if it's something simple like: "I don't have many big deps, mabbe lombok and guava and some JDBC drivers perhaps, and I want to start an EC2 instance, isntall a jdk of some sort on there, and launch a server via jetty" the answer is: Oh, okay. yeah you can go for 11. [11:37]
Diablo-D3 surial: intellij ships its own jre [11:37]
surial mib_mib: you're reading the wrong page. [11:37]
Diablo-D3 at least on windows [11:37]
SJr On Linux too [11:37]
surial mib_mib: LTS is an invention solely linked to OracleJDK. [11:37]
mib_mib LOL but my dreams! [11:37]
surial That's a for-pay thing. [11:37]
surial Diablo-D3: see, there you go? What are you worried about? [11:37]
Diablo-D3 they often modify the jre itself for intellij's own purposes (such as when they were getting hidpi to work right) [11:37]
mib_mib surial: its worse than that, I am supporting a java based desktop app =D [11:38]
surial mib_mib: OpenJDK (the binary release managed by oracle) has no LTS. Every release, 'LTS' or not, gets 6 months and then it's gone [11:38]
Diablo-D3 I was just wondering if they switch, but no, they didnt [11:38]
surial Hence, and I'm going to spell it out one more time... [11:38]
surial ADOPTOPENJDK ADOPTOPENJDK ADOPTOPENJDK ADOPTOPENJDK [11:38]
surial https://adoptopenjdk.net/ [11:38]
surial surial's title: "AdoptOpenJDK - Open source, prebuilt OpenJDK binaries" [11:38]
surial Hopefully that came through correctly. [11:38]
mib_mib surial: yah, it has, but of course now i need to figure out how to bundle that for inclusion in my desktop app [11:39]
surial mib_mib: okay, well, jre8 is going the way of the dodo at some point, probably early 2020. Time to upgrade to a jdk11 model where you ship the JRE (in the form of jilink). Which reuqires a bunch of upgrading, you'll have to modularize your app and all that. First step is to see which of your deps are j11 ready. Hopefully all of them. [11:39]
surial adoptopenjdk is not something you ever install on your client's computers. [11:39]
mib_mib surial: as you mention, jilink - however, that requires changing automated build processes, etc, etc [11:39]
surial mib_mib: yes it does. [11:39]
surial the 'old' model is just gone. at best you can continue to ship oracle JRE8, unsupported, but make sure you don't 'install' it. You don't want the user to do win+R, 'cmd', 'java -version' and have it work. [11:40]
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mib_mib surial: true [11:40]
mib_mib well this is a slightly sad day [11:40]
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surial and it most definitely should not make it so that clicking a jar runs it or .javaws stuff opens or _gasp_ applets run in browsers. As long as you do none of that and your app doesn't serialize or run random classes, even if there IS a security leak in the JRE you're less vulnerable. There can still be a thing where, say, the JPG decoder in that JRE is security-broken and you read some user-specified image and that leads to [11:41]
surial issues... [11:41]
Diablo-D3 crap, I wonder wtf Im going to do with all those old impi firmwares [11:41]
surial But I'm not aware of any issues right now. [11:41]
surial has the feeling he's ruined a few christmases today. whoopsie. [11:41]
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Diablo-D3 surial: I cant say Im particularly happy with this. [11:43]
Diablo-D3 surial: .... so wait, wtf does kotlin do here then? [11:46]
surial Diablo-D3: no difference whatsoever. [11:47]
surial Diablo-D3: kotlin is a language that compiles down to java (the class file format and such). [11:47]
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surial JREs, JDKs, yadayada are all about running and debugging class files. [11:48]
Diablo-D3 yeah, but is it >8 compatible? [11:48]
surial kotlin desktop apps will have to use jilink same as java written apps. [11:48]
surial Diablo-D3: probably not. [11:48]
Diablo-D3 goddamnit. [11:50]
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j3kyl_ newbie question: Is Eclipse that bad? I have been using Emacs/VScode so far... [11:51]
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Diablo-D3 why cant we just have a language that isn't full of useless corporate politics [11:52]
Diablo-D3 j3kyl_: use intellij. [11:52]
j3kyl_ Diablo-D3: I am aware of Intellij, but most jobs requires Eclipse as mininal... [11:52]
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Diablo-D3 not sure I'd want to work for a place that makes me use eclipse [11:53]
Diablo-D3 thats like working as a mechanic, and all you get is brightly colored fisher price tools [11:54]
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j3kyl_ still, Diablo-D3, what makes people "hate" Eclipse? is its slowness that worst argument or its extensions are shitty/difficult to manage [12:01]
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metrixx surial, which sources do you follow to track these changes on java? [12:05]
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mib_mib any way to get compact strings in java 8? [12:15]
mib_mib i'm assuming no [12:15]
surial metrixx: this channel, reddit.com/r/java, various blogs, a few mailing lists... [12:15]
metrixx surial, thank you [12:15]
surial j3kyl_: From my experience, what makes people hate eclipse is toxic groupy behaviour. [12:16]
surial j3kyl_: the same shit redcaps do all the time. IntelliJ's early community was just _that_ toxic. Feel better about themselves by bashing the competition. [12:16]
surial same shit scala's community has done since its inception. Fortunately the sheer toxic bullshit wafting off of intellij community is finally dwindling down some, that helps a lot. [12:16]
j3kyl_ surial: interesting. I knew there was to that... [12:17]
surial and scala as an entire entity is dwindling down into nothingness so that problem is fortunately solving itself. [12:17]
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aro how do i stop java/jackson from stripping trailing zeros on a decimal(9,6) [12:19]
aro it is causing a bunch of hashing to fail [12:19]
SJr metrixx, one thing I follow is Jetbrains Java Annotated Monthly, it's a good recap. [12:20]
surial aro: decimal(9,6)? As in, database? [12:21]
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aro well its in the database stored as 123.482750 [12:22]
surial aro: how are you reading it? As string, or as double? [12:22]
aro as a double [12:22]
aro or biginteger maybe [12:22]
surial then what you ask is utterly impossible. [12:22]
aro why? [12:22]
surial because that's not what doubles are. [12:22]
surial try this: [12:22]
aro its impossible to not strip trailing zeros? [12:22]
aro they are bigintegers [12:22]
aro not doubles [12:22]
surial System.out.println(0.1 + 0.2); [12:23]
surial aro: no. worse, that may well print 123.48274999999999861. [12:23]
surial hence: CANNOT. BE. DOUBLE. [12:23]
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aro orry, bigdecimal [12:23]
aro doh [12:23]
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surial you can do that, but there's no way to configure it to strip to the same place the DB stripped it to unless you actually know about the 9,6 part of it. [12:23]
aro ok thats fine [12:23]
surial bigdecimal at least does not convert 123.482750 to 123.48274999999999861 or similar. [12:24]
aro they will always have 6 significant figures [12:24]
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aro always [12:24]
surial okay, if you know, you are now tasked with: I have a BigDecimal and I need to turn it into a string which has the format .6. [12:24]
surial I think String.format(%.06f") will do it. give that a try. [12:24]
aro it cannot be a string though [12:24]
surial boy, you're a fountain of ignorance aren't you? [12:25]
aro why? because I can't use a string? [12:25]
surial no, because you don't understand how hashes work. [12:25]
metrixx SJr, thank you. it seems really good [12:25]
surial hashes work on raw bytes. [12:25]
aro ok its not just used for hashing [12:25]
surial okay, well, to HASH it, you have to convert it to a string. [12:25]
aro I am aware of that [12:25]
j3kyl_ Intellij Community version is fully opensource and enough for most java only projects? [12:26]
surial great. Convert it to a string not with .toString() or "" + theBigDecimalInstance, but with String.format("%.06f", thebdinstance) and we're off to the races. I'd also put in the effort of configuring locale so you get a . for sure and not a , in funny places. [12:26]
aro ok [12:26]
SJr j3kyl_, I pay for the full version, at the very least the additional inspections will give you more awareness and you can point out problems in your companies code base and everyone will think you are a genius :) [12:27]
j3kyl_ SJr: Oh, thats sweet. I like those kind of automated tools, must be damn boring inspecting everything... [12:28]
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aro would it be better to use float? [12:31]
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Jake4532 Hi [02:31]
Jake4532 Pattern regex = Pattern.compile("(['\"])(.*?)\1"); System.out.println(input); // prints 'single' Matcher m = regex.matcher(input); System.out.println(m.find()); // print false [02:31]
Jake4532 Why this does not work? [02:31]
Jake4532 why does fint returns flase [02:31]
Jake4532 find* [02:31]
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kicked mitch0 (fix your connection please) [03:11]
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CAR_Hoare_ hey :D [05:24]
indomitable CAR_Hoare_: don't be a hoare [05:32]
CAR_Hoare_ indomitable: Oh, so I shouldn't be an amazing scientist that invented many amazing things like the Null reference [05:35]
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indomitable CAR_Hoare_: null is not a good thing, whoever told you it was needs to eat a lot of arsenic [05:36]
indomitable it's also known as the "billion dollar mistake" [05:37]
indomitable though hoare did do useful things [05:37]
CAR_Hoare_ you're a mistake [05:37]
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CAR_Hoare_ I don't quite understand the return type of a lambda expression [05:38]
CAR_Hoare_ is it the Functional interface? [05:39]
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CAR_Hoare_ () -> System.out.println() I thought that returned a void lambda because println() is void [05:39]
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CAR_Hoare_ Hello? [05:55]
CAR_Hoare_ You can only use lambdas in certain contexts... one is assigned to a Functional Interface reference, so that means parameters of that type as well? [05:56]
CAR_Hoare_ kinda not really an anonymous method then [05:56]
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CAR_Hoare_ You can only use a lambda when the return type is known, via a return statement, or a variable initialization, stuff like that [05:59]
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CAR_Hoare_ Kinda defeats the purpose but w/e [06:00]
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maxxe in a forloop like 'for (String line : lines)', is it possible to increment to the next line within the body of the forloop instead of waiting for the next iteration? [06:15]
CAR_Hoare_ yeah if (line.equals(lineNotWanted)) continue; [06:17]
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whoever hi all is there a way to make an enhanced for(){} mutable or do i need to itterate to do it [07:10]
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indomitable enhanced how [07:12]
indomitable what do you mean "make it mutable"? [07:13]
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blf Is it common practice to create one Servlet per HTTP resource? Or would a single servlet better handle an entire application? [10:39]
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cheeser either way is fine. depends on your app. [10:56]
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peaceguy hi bobek :) [11:13]
bobek hi [11:13]
peaceguy hi :) [11:13]
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