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« 2021-05-09


2021-05-11 »

Nick Message Date
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asbachb I've a cdi event observer singleton "ejb". But for every event fired a new observer is created. I'm a little puzzled how to prevent this behavior. [01:27]
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dekenevs How expensive is while(cond) {} on the jvm? How about sleeping inside the while. Are there better alternatives for polling a condition? [04:39]
_lucifer jcip [04:39]
_lucifer dekenevs, jcip is Java Concurrency In Practice, a book focused on implementing threaded and concurrent applications in Java. You can read more at and buy a copy at [04:39]
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dekenevs Thank you! This is what I needed [04:46]
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superhanz2 @dreamreal [06:42]
superhanz2 dreamreal im intsalling gradle rn [06:42]
superhanz2 just had one question [06:42]
superhanz2 did you suggest that I start a new project? and then copy and paste my code over to it? I ran gradle init in my existing project, and it seems to have worked, fine, is recognised by IntelliJ. It has a few problems, like not recognising the source root [06:44]
_lucifer you can configure the source root in intellij but it usually detects it correctly automatically. are your files inside a package? [06:45]
dreamreal ^^^ I suggested creating a new one so you didn't run the risk of wrecking something you already had working. Get the copy working, replace the old one. [06:45]
dreamreal _lucifer: he has an IDEA project, so it puts the source in non-src/main/java structure [06:45]
dreamreal he needs to move them, is all [06:45]
_lucifer ? [06:46]
dreamreal This is one of those "put these safety glasses on JUST IN CASE" moments, with a response "... why?" [06:46]
superhanz2 they are inside a package [06:48]
superhanz2 also should have done the copy-idea [06:48]
superhanz2 i am using version control though [06:48]
superhanz2 so can get back my old .iml [06:48]
dreamreal sure [06:48]
dreamreal and once you have your build.gradle working flawlessly, you can delete the idea stuff from the repo and add those things (and eclipse project config) to .gitignore [06:49]
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superhanz2 huh not sure why i was disconnected [06:51]
dreamreal IRC doesn't love you like it should [06:51]
superhanz2 i had a look at gradle tasks, and see why you recommended it [06:52]
superhanz2 looks useful [06:52]
superhanz2 so is the best strategy still to create a separate project and copy files over? or is there an easy way i can get gradle to recognise my source code? [06:52]
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dreamreal you can copy in place if you're properly source-controlled [06:57]
dreamreal I assumed you weren't, because you weren't ide-independent and those are pretty basic things to get right [06:57]
dreamreal I should have had more confidence in you, but IRC teaches you to be cynical [06:57]
superhanz2 what do you mean copy in place? [06:58]
superhanz2 iv got the source code, its in the folder called src [06:59]
dreamreal "mkdir src/main/java; mv src/mypackage src/main/java" [06:59]
superhanz2 ah cool [06:59]
superhanz2 is the src/main somethign that is gradle specific? [06:59]
dreamreal no, it's a standard for build tools these days. It's the source directory; main means that it's deliverable; java is the language. Tests go in src/test/java. [07:00]
dreamreal Static resources like properties or xml or images go in src/main/resources or src/test/resources. [07:00]
mbooth superhanz2: Tools like gradle and maven are "opinionated" -- it is their opinion that this is where your source shall live, to distinguish it from test code which lives in.... yeah what dreamreal sez [07:01]
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superhanz2 okay so moving my project from src/ into src/main will mean that Gradle can recognise it? [07:01]
superhanz2 its not just an optional convention? [07:01]
dreamreal it already recognizes it. You just don't have your source in the right place. [07:01]
dreamreal You can configure it. But don't. [07:01]
dreamreal Seriously, don't. [07:01]
mbooth IMO opinionated tools are good, it means you have to care about fewer things because the tool takes care of it. [07:02]
dreamreal Use the idiom. [07:02]
dreamreal ^^^ and every change you introduce into the idiom means that other people, when they see your stuff, are left going "...whaaaa?" [07:02]
superhanz2 does it have to be moved to src/main/java/ or would src/main/ be fine too? [07:02]
superhanz2 in terms of getting Gradle to recognise it [07:02]
dreamreal When programmers look at java projects, they KNOW it's in src/main/java that the main source code lives. [07:02]
superhanz2 hmm okay [07:02]
dreamreal src/main/java, or else I'd have said something else. [07:02]
superhanz2 i'll follow your advice, although my folder hierarchy is now seriously deep [07:03]
dreamreal Nobody - and I mean nobody - looks for build configurations that change this stuff. [07:03]
dreamreal what's "seriously deep?" [07:03]
dreamreal five? six? 12? [07:03]
mbooth superhanz2: src/main/java, because the tool has the opinion that java is separate from, e.g. kotlin, which lives in /src/main/kotlin [07:03]
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dreamreal or c, or js, or... [07:03]
dreamreal even scala [07:04]
dreamreal okay, be back in an hour [07:04]
mbooth First rule of ##java club is don't talk about scala [07:04]
dreamreal superhanz2: part of "creating a new project" is also the fact that this gives you an idiomatic structure, which you're having to create manually. But c'est la vie. [07:04]
superhanz2 okay I've created it [07:05]
dreamreal I ain't afraid of your dumb rules! [07:05]
superhanz2 hopefully will be recognised now [07:05]
superhanz2 thanks btw [07:05]
dreamreal scala sucks! There, I talked about it. [07:05]
superhanz2 would be stuck without this help [07:05]
mbooth superhanz2: I'm pretty sure this stuff is covered in intro tutorials (it definitely is for maven) [07:06]
superhanz2 there are lots of gradle tutorials that show how to make a project from scratch [07:07]
superhanz2 oh nice its recognised now [07:07]
mbooth \/ [07:07]
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alkino hello, trying to make openjdk / openjfx / ant (only trying to build an existing project), can get any help? [07:28]
_lucifer anyone [07:28]
_lucifer alkino, Chances are someone has, so why not just ask your question and save some time? If someone knows the answer and wants/has time to help, perhaps they will. [07:28]
alkino yes of course, I will try to make a question about my problems [07:29]
alkino trying to build a package with ant, tells me: [07:29]
alkino /home/alkino/editeurPanovisu/src/editeurpanovisu/ error: package javafx.scene.input does not exist [07:29]
alkino Install openjfx, still the same error [07:30]
alkino should I set a variable? [07:30]
alkino I see a module-path, but don't get how to set it with ant [07:30]
alkino openjfx is installed in: /usr/lib/jvm/java-15-openjdk/lib [07:30]
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superhanz2 I'm adding my dependencies in Gradle [07:51]
superhanz2 and have come across a solution which involves moving all the jar files into a subdirectory called libs, and then pointing to this from the build.gradle configuration. Is this good practice? Is it better to store the jar files elsewhere? The jars I am using are not on an online repostory which is irritating [07:52]
superhanz2 Also, I have a directory that wasn't given to me as a jar file (I think I'm expected to compile it myself, but couldn't figure out how at the time) and I had managed to just add that as a dependency using IntelliJ, but now I'm using Gradle, is there a way to add this as a dependency? I could always add it to my src/main/java but it isn't actually my code, and this would be confusing... Can I add it externally somehow? [07:53]
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dreamreal superhanz2: do not add dependencies as part of your project in a /lib if you can help it. [08:05]
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dreamreal the other source code sounds like it needs to be its own project that you can use as a dependency. [08:05]
superhanz2 so the alternative to adding as part of your project in a /lib is to use an online repository? [08:06]
dreamreal that's the good alternative, yes. [08:06]
dreamreal The bad alternative is the one you've chosen. :) [08:06]
superhanz2 presumably its better to have a lib file as part of the project containing the jar file than pointing to a local jar file stored in my downloads folder [08:06]
dreamreal superhanz2: sure, but... is it really? Wouldn't it be better to point to a resource that wasn't yours *at all* and therefore didn't depend on your local filesystem state? [08:07]
superhanz2 the problem is the version of the jar I want to use was last updated on its online repository 7 years ago, and is 10 versions behind the current one [08:07]
dreamreal *sigh* [08:07]
superhanz2 how would I do that though? [08:08]
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dreamreal no, I get it [08:08]
dreamreal you're working with stuff whose maintainers are trying to make you live on hard mode [08:08]
dreamreal You have a few options, none of them particularly good for your level [08:08]
superhanz2 "To install this package, just add the physics2d directory to your [08:09]
superhanz2 CLASSPATH. Alternatively you can unpack the files into the appropriate [08:09]
superhanz2 directories in MASON, or create a jar file and stick that in your [08:09]
superhanz2 CLASSPATH." [08:09]
dreamreal you could always nudge the maintainers into being responsible; you could find an alternative for the libraries you've chosen; you could BECOME a maintainer and publish it to an online repo yourself; you can store it in your project and use the jar from there (which is sort of what you're doing) [08:09]
superhanz2 this is the instructions for the other package I need to include, which isn't given to me as a jar file [08:10]
dreamreal please don't paste stuff in ##java [08:10]
superhanz2 ah sorry, I thought it woulnd't take up so many lines, will use pastebin in the future [08:10]
dreamreal yeah, this sounds like whoever wrote physics2d really didn't get java much [08:10]
superhanz2 so you said that this source code should belong as its own project htat I cna use as a dependency. what did you mean by that? [08:11]
dreamreal I meant option #2 above; you'd create a valid, working, complete project using their source code and publish it to maven central yourself [08:11]
superhanz2 is there a way to add non-jar files? I think before setting up Gradle I had added it as an so it showed up in the External Library tab, so there is a way [08:12]
dreamreal maybe under a different package name because it's yours, not theirs, but eh. Like I said, that's not a particularly good solution. [08:12]
dreamreal superhanz2: is it a ... file? It sounds like it's a project structure, a collection of source [08:12]
superhanz2 its a collection of source code [08:13]
dreamreal then IMO you'd create a project and give it a valid artifact name and publish it yourself with something descriptive, like "this is a copy of the physics2d source from, but they don't maintain current versions in the central repo so I'm doing for them" [08:14]
dreamreal but that's ... a little much. [08:14]
superhanz2 If I were to store it somewhere locally (like in a libs folder as I am now) how would that work? [08:14]
superhanz2 Given it isn't a .jar. Or would I have to make it into a jar first? I think it must be possible somehow, since I had this working before migrating to Gradle [08:15]
dreamreal you can refer to system paths as dependencies, but you'd want to make it a jar first [08:16]
dreamreal what you were doing with IDEA was telling IDEA to compile from multiple source trees, which you can ALSO do with gradle, but at that point, why not just incorporate the source tree into yours [08:16]
superhanz2 I guess because then the separation between my code and their code is less clear? [08:17]
superhanz2 I think compiling into a jar would be ideal. I wish they had better documented how it works [08:17]
dreamreal sure, although the package would do that for you too [08:17]
superhanz2 there is a make file [08:17]
dreamreal are you sure there's not a maintained alternative out there? [08:17]
dreamreal ew [08:17]
dreamreal so, yeah, are you sure there's not a maintained alternative? [08:17]
superhanz2 hmm there are alternative agent based modelling platforms out there [08:18]
superhanz2 but I have written so much in this one already [08:18]
superhanz2 it is waaay too late to switch to another one [08:18]
dreamreal it get it [08:19]
Bombe It gets it or it gets the hose again! [08:22]
Bombe Good morning. [08:22]
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superhanz2 so dreamreal, you mentioned that what I was doing before was telling IDEA to compile from multiple source trees, which is something I can also do in Gradle [08:27]
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superhanz2 this would involve adding the physics2d source code to my classpath or to however classpath is handled in Gradle right? [08:28]
dreamreal to your compile path, I guess [08:28]
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superhanz2 disconnected again :\ [08:32]
superhanz2 where should I store physics2d if I want to add it to my compile path? [08:33]
dreamreal I dunno, it's not a standard idiomatic thing, choose something and learn to pray [08:33]
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superhanz2 no love from irc today [08:37]
superhanz2 keeps on disconnecting me [08:37]
superhanz2 oh just figured out how this make command works [08:38]
superhanz2 brillo i have physics2d as a jar [08:38]
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pepa I am getting "pageContext not defined" [10:36]
pepa this is in some script I add in the <head> section [10:36]
pepa why could this be? [10:36]
mbooth pepa: Try a javascript channel [10:37]
pepa excuse me sir [10:37]
pepa pageContext is a jsp implicit object [10:37]
mbooth You are excused [10:38]
dreamreal funny what happens when people figure you don't need context to understand their statements out of the blue [10:38]
dreamreal pepa: what's wrong with the code I'm looking at, please [10:39]
dreamreal it's calling _waitForCore [10:39]
pepa ? [10:39]
dreamreal I need to fix this a really lot [10:39]
pepa ? [10:40]
dreamreal You're not going to help? [10:40]
mbooth Context, shmontext [10:40]
mbooth Hey there's a problem in my code too. pepa why could this be? [10:41]
dreamreal my problem's more important than yours, by virtue of being mine [10:42]
dreamreal no offense, idiot [10:43]
mbooth looks behind himself [10:43]
mbooth Haha there's no idiot behind me.... Oh [10:43]
dreamreal ur so smurt [10:43]
dreamreal the real question is how many other smurt people are paying attention [10:44]
mbooth dreamreal: I'm so smurt I pay at*eleven*tion [10:46]
pepa look [10:47]
pepa no smart person would be coding [10:47]
pepa just get over it [10:47]
pepa you are not smart [10:48]
dreamreal well, that explains a lot [10:48]
pepa no one in your job is smart [10:48]
dreamreal And that's relieving, removes all need for us to try to help anyone else [10:48]
dreamreal we're not smart, they're not smart, we're all stupid, therefore our errors are unavoidable, we have no agency. Whew! [10:48]
mbooth pepa: Sure you're totally right: I'm a programmer because it's easy money, not because I'm smart :-) [10:48]
dreamreal And with that in mind, I'll happily tell you to sit and spin, good luck [10:48]
pepa it's not easy like super easy [10:49]
pepa but it's not something that an evolved mind would be doing [10:49]
dreamreal pepa: you have a curious way of trying to make people want to help you [10:49]
dreamreal it's almost like it's designed to do the opposite [10:50]
mbooth pepa: So, you get an error "in some script I add in the <head> section" -- I suggest you remove that script. [10:50]
mbooth "Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this!" ... "Well stop doing it then!" [10:50]
pepa it's funny [10:50]
dreamreal mbooth: but that requires that they be smart and they've already suggested that's not the case [10:50]
pepa you come here like "oh I have something very important, very valuable.... my knowledge" [10:51]
dreamreal we do? [10:51]
dreamreal Or... who does? [10:51]
dreamreal I mean, you made a statement that it was not the case [10:51]
dreamreal why would you, then, expect otherwise? [10:51]
dreamreal "you are all idiots, I am an idiot, now help me as if you weren't idiots" [10:51]
dreamreal again, curious strategy, but I guess it's worked out well for you so far [10:52]
pepa who said you were an idiot? [10:52]
dreamreal you did! [10:52]
mbooth pepa: And you come in here and state a problem with something that smells suspiciously like javascript with NO OTHER CONTEXT whatsoever. I'm not sure what you expected :-D [10:52]
dreamreal `pepa | no smart person would be coding` followed by `pepa| you are not smart` [10:52]
dreamreal I'm taking you at your word as if you weren't a liar [10:53]
pepa between smart and idiot there's many places [10:53]
pepa average [10:53]
pepa normal person [10:53]
dreamreal if you are not a liar, then I'm not smart, and I have no agency here; I'm off the hook! If you ARE a liar, well, that's not a guarantee that I'm smart, of course, but why the hell would I help a liar [10:53]
cheeser let's move on [10:53]
pepa well you help usa [10:54]
dreamreal I don't care where you're from [10:54]
pepa from usa [10:54]
cheeser let's [10:54]
cheeser move [10:54]
cheeser on [10:54]
dreamreal enter [10:54]
dreamreal cheeser, Enter is not punctuation. Please don't press your Enter or Return key until you're finished typing your question, sentence, or idea. It is annoying to see that and hard to follow. [10:54]
dreamreal D [10:54]
leduyquang753 bitter smiles. [10:55]
pepa pageContext object from jsp [10:56]
pepa whatchu know about it [10:56]
dreamreal that we're still missing context. Show us the code that gives you the error. [10:56]
cheeser it's outdated and antiquated. [10:56]
dreamreal And nobody should be using JSP any more. [10:56]
pepa insolent [10:57]
dreamreal aaaand here you show how interested you are in getting help, again [10:57]
pepa I drive a 1960 car [10:57]
dreamreal nobody cares, pepa [10:58]
dreamreal let us know when you want to get help. You just crossed the Ottinger Horizon. [10:58]
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mbooth questions [11:00]
mbooth mbooth, questions is [11:00]
mbooth Uhuh [11:00]
mbooth no, questions is <reply> [11:01]
mbooth OK, mbooth. [11:01]
mbooth Dunno if it's apt, but it's not a dead link at least :-) [11:01]
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sbalmos it's not quite dead yet! [11:20]
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superstar64 is there anyway you can implement leibniz equality using `extends` generics? [11:44]
superstar64 is it possible to make this code compile without casts ? [11:44]
cheeser A and B would have to be the same type [11:45]
cheeser so no [11:45]
dreamreal probably not [11:45]
dreamreal there are probably some amazing bytecode tricks you could use but ... let's go with no [11:45]
cheeser well, i guess you're only converting from A to B [11:46]
superstar64 this normally possible in system-f ? using leibniz equality, but java only has native system-f without casting [11:47]
superstar64 i wish something like `Equal<A extends B,B extends A>` worked [11:49]
cheeser then A and B would be the same type [11:50]
superstar64 that's the point? [11:50]
cheeser return A == B [11:51]
cheeser next [11:51]
cheeser Another satisfied customer. Next! [11:51]
cheeser D [11:51]
superstar64 i just really wish java had higher kinded types, it would make the language so much better [11:53]
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dreamreal there's always scala. [11:54]
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superstar64 i mean, it's possible to emulate it in java, but you need at least 2 wrapper functions per higher kinded type [11:56]
superstar64 [11:56]
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superstar64 and there's an implementation of this [11:59]
superstar64 superstar64's title: "GitHub - KindedJ/KindedJ: A collection of shared interfaces for evidence-based Higher Kinded Types in the JVM" [11:59]
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dreamreal right, and somehow most java coders get by without worrying about it, or they use scala and learn to hate [12:00]
freeone3000 Higher-order abstractions are most useful in performing code duplication reduction. This isn't something Java is great at. [12:05]
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freeone3000 (also, the example in the paper for defunctionalizing fold could easily have been done by binding Fn_plus as a free function and relying on ML's composition operator, but that's neither here nor there) [12:06]
Kristine86 I'm trying to write a concise Java code for removing element from Doubly LinkedList for LFU cache implementation purpose. I went over some online implementation but wasn't sure about their correctness. Can you verify my code? [12:10]
Kristine86 I want to make the remove method DoublyLL shorter, readable and correct since it can be very useful for other problems. [12:11]
_lucifer java has a linked list, but for all practical purposes you should use a ArrayList or ArrayDeque [12:11]
Kristine86 @_luci [12:11]
dreamreal Kristine86: in practice linked lists in java are useless except for specific cases. and if memory serves, linkedlist in java IS a DLL [12:12]
dreamreal "useless" is a little strong, of course, but... in nearly every case arraylist is better [12:13]
Kristine86 _lucifer I think I know what you mean since ultil LinkedList is not performance optimized. But it's for interview purposes, and I can't use util arraylist, linkedlist for LFU or LRU implementation can I? Even so, it wouldn't look good for interview time complexity analysis. [12:13]
freeone3000 "for interview purposes" oh boy. [12:14]
_lucifer falls into homework category then. [12:14]
_lucifer homework [12:14]
_lucifer Kristine86, We don't answer homework-style questions here. Homework assignments often intentionally ask you to produce bad code: You generally HAVE to use some mechanism even though it isn't the best tool for the job, and '.. just use this library that does all that in a very nice way!' is usually not acceptable. That makes them VERY frustrating questions. [12:14]
dreamreal yeah, good luck [12:14]
freeone3000 Write your own test suite, is the best advice I can give here. [12:14]
Kristine86 _lucifer lmao I'm not solving it the problem given to me for interview. I'm preparing it ahead for interview. It falls under learning phase. :P [12:14]
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dreamreal and yet that still qualifies, how odd [12:15]
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Kristine86 dreamreal so still I can't ask that question, even though I'm preparing? It's not cheating to prepare ahead and learn. [12:16]
dreamreal Kristine86: you did ask! You just aren't likely to get much of an answer since it's so narrowly academic [12:18]
dreamreal when the answer to your question is idiomatically "oh use arraylist"... I mean... well... uh.... [12:19]
_lucifer Kristine86, read the factoid properly. its not about cheating, its about intentionally not using the correct tools. [12:19]
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Kristine86 dreamreal you are not wrong there, if someone considers using Java for interview purposes. Yes. [12:21]
Kristine86 _lucifer well that depends upon the context. What is correct tools? [12:22]
_lucifer ArrayList. [12:22]
_lucifer (in your context) [12:22]
dreamreal if it's in the standard lib, it's "the correct tool." [12:22]
Kristine86 lmao I mean in general definition correct tools is very vague. [12:23]
mbooth Kristine86: And yet, re-inventing something from the standard lib is extremely unvaguely "the wrong tool" :-) [12:23]
Kristine86 Again context context guys [12:24]
Kristine86 Anyways, that wasn't really helpful to me. If you don't want to answer just leave it there. [12:24]
mbooth Kristine86: In *any* context :-) [12:24]
dreamreal Kristine86: that's what we were trying to do [12:25]
dreamreal we told you we didn't want to answer, we told you why [12:25]
Kristine86 mbooth well no one thing will fit all. Well not here for that debate. [12:25]
Kristine86 dreamreal oh there were more than that! ^^ [12:26]
dreamreal not really [12:26]
mbooth Kristine86: Ah yes I forgot the use-case of "something like what's in the standard lib but worse" :-D [12:26]
Kristine86 OK I will find answers somewhere else. Don't worry! [12:27]
dreamreal we weren't worried. [12:27]
dreamreal but thank you. [12:27]
Kristine86 haha so bitter [12:27]
dreamreal what? [12:27]
Kristine86 that was just an expression. To say let's end it here. I didn't really you were worried. [12:28]
Kristine86 *didn't really mean [12:28]
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superstar64 did you guys know that you can scott encoding to have typesafe tagged unions / sealed classes? [12:34]
superstar64 [12:34]
mbooth 32322200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 [12:36]
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ricky_clarkson superstar64: There's not much that's sealed about your Either. Another file in the same package can come along and do class Center implements Either<String, String> [12:40]
ricky_clarkson A more common encoding is to have Either as a class with a private constructor, and Left and Right would be both subclasses and nested classes of Either. [12:41]
ricky_clarkson Even that won't stop something retarded like Mockito from making a 3rd implementation. [12:41]
_lucifer java will have `sealed` types soon so you could use that in future. [12:42]
superstar64 ricky_clarkson yes there is, you have to implement `match` which forces normalization [12:44]
yawkat also known as visitors [12:45]
superstar64 yes visitors and sum / variant types are the same thing [12:46]
ricky_clarkson Nothing stops Center from implementing match. [12:46]
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ricky_clarkson and visitor is far less readable than pattern matching, especially as Java doesn't have named parameters. [12:47]
superstar64 ricky_clarkson yes, but when you implement you have to call call either left or right to be able to return `C` [12:47]
superstar64 `match` here is pattern match, `myEither.match(onLeft -> ..., onRight -> ...)` [12:48]
ricky_clarkson So Center.match does: return Math.random() < 0.5 ? left.apply("foo") : right.apply("foo"); [12:48]
ricky_clarkson basically ideally a sealed type should prevent further subtypes, so you get those nice juicy guarantees. [12:49]
superstar64 ok, assuming `match` has no side effects or returns null, it should be typesafe [12:49]
ricky_clarkson either.match(onLeft -> ..., onRight -> ...) looks like it solves the problem, but the problem isn't really Either. You'll be more likely to have something like: [12:50]
yawkat (System.currentTimeMillis() % 2) == 0 has no side effects :) [12:51]
ricky_clarkson employee.match(bossTeam -> ..., /* no team, not a boss */ () -> ...) or whatever real case you might have [12:51]
ricky_clarkson vector.match((x, y) -> .. code for 2D vector, (x, y, z) -> .. code for 3D vector) [12:52]
superstar64 well, you can design a `Maybe` class in the same way, or an n arity `Either` type [12:52]
ricky_clarkson in any case it gets hard to remember what each lambda is for, so being able to/having to name them in patterns is good. [12:53]
ricky_clarkson case Boss(team) -> ..; case Underling -> ... [12:53]
superstar64 well, instead of multiple args, you could have a `interface Visit<R,A,B> { R onLeft(A); R onRight(B); }` and just use anonymous classes if names are important [12:54]
ricky_clarkson I see you don't like readability ;) [12:54]
superstar64 ricky_clarkson i'm not saying it shoudn't be built in, i'm just saying it's currently possible to do it in a type safe matter in current java [12:54]
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ricky_clarkson I've done the visitor thing, in fact I learned the visitor pattern by seeing something like that in the javac sources back in the day. [12:55]
ricky_clarkson but it does get ugly quickly [12:55]
ricky_clarkson Sure. In my view the encoding you showed isn't the best as it's not really 'sealed'. [12:55]
superstar64 it's only when you are forced to use dynamic casts, using the `<R> R f(...)` makes it typesafe [12:55]
superstar64 *it's only ugly [12:55]
superstar64 it is seal, as long as only use `match`, and `match` has no side effects, you can't tell the difference [12:56]
ricky_clarkson It's ugly when you end up with an anonymous class for your visitors, or you can't remember which lambda parameter was for which 'side' of the ADT. [12:56]
ricky_clarkson Side effects aren't even relevant as far as I can tell. [12:56]
ricky_clarkson match could write to disk and still work the same in any of these encodings. [12:57]
superstar64 if it has no side effects it's isomorphic to a sealed class [12:57]
superstar64 ricky_clarkson, if you have a separate `Visitor` class you can do existential types too [12:59]
freeone3000 you could also use instanceof and be done with it, it's not like the compiler knows what you're trying to do here so you're still casting at the other end. [01:02]
superstar64 but instanceof isn't safe, if you stick to only using match, the type check catches your errors [01:02]
superstar64 oh also here an example of using existential types to implement freer monads [01:03]
freeone3000 "isn't safe" in this case means "needs an else". [01:03]
yawkat instanceof isnt safe, unlike the functional variant thats safe except when it isnt. [01:04]
superstar64 polymorphic visitors correspond to existential types like in `<X> R impure(App<F, X> now, Function<X, Freer<F, A>> after);` [01:05]
freeone3000 And since Java has no language-level concept of a monad, or a pure versus impure function, it doesn't actually do anything you couldn't do previously. [01:08]
dreamreal and as before, scala's right there [01:08]
dreamreal it beckons thee [01:08]
dreamreal it wiggles its hips suggestively, hoping you don't catch the stench of putrefaction [01:09]
superstar64 i just find it amusing to try to port haskell concepts to java, i'm already using haskell as my main language now [01:10]
superstar64 at least until i eventually get a job [01:10]
freeone3000 Yeah, I think that's a good summation of this conversation so far. [01:10]
mbooth Huh there's a whole new version of Haskell since I last used it. Disappointed to learn my Haskell98 skills are no longer state of the art [01:12]
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ricky_clarkson Haskell? Unreadable for dependent types. I'm an Idris man :) [01:16]
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freeone3000 too much explicit typing. F# is the clear victor. [01:16]
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ricky_clarkson superstar64: You could go crazy trying to define a Monad interface in Java, or pretty much any mainstream lang. [01:17]
superstar64 i have gone crazy [01:18]
ricky_clarkson nothing in the top ten has higher kinds to my knowledge except maybe C++, which probably doesn't deliberately have them, it just has text-based generics/templates so it gets them. [01:18]
superstar64 c++ is missing higher rank types, which monads also need [01:19]
superstar64 typeclasses with hkts desugar into hrts [01:19]
wedr Finally, after 2 weeks, I've finished copying/pasting code in 100+ places. [01:30]
dreamreal thanks for telling us [01:31]
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wedr Yeah, I know how much you dread me in doing the same mundane task over and over 100+ times. [01:32]
wedr winks [01:32]
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xuxx is there people here that did some projects or something else on Javacard ? [01:45]
Diablo-D3 the answer is yes, I do remember someone in here saying they worked on that stuff [01:46]
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cheeser you're probably remembering xuxx asking last week. :) [01:47]
dreamreal and then you're remembering someone from 2005 mentioning "golly that sounds kinda neat, wonder if Sun can get anyone to use it" to an audience of crickets [01:47]
Diablo-D3 naw, like a year or so back someone was "dear God, I'm glad I quit my job" [01:48]
xuxx cheeser, did I asked ? [01:48]
xuxx My bad I forgot x) [01:48]
dreamreal Diablo-D3: ... [01:49]
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kenalex hello everyone [02:21]
cheeser waves [02:23]
kenalex I normally use java to develop most of my backend applications and use node for things like creating build scripts for angular frontend. I was wondering if there are any advantages of using node over java for backend application development and vice versa. [02:29]
kenalex just hoping to hear from experience from people who have used both [02:30]
dreamreal kenalex: java is FAR more durable for server-side processes than Java. It's also a slower development cycle, which MAY or MAY NOT be an advantage. [02:30]
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_lucifer Node is JS, that's disadvantage enough to not use it when possible. [02:31]
kenalex ok [02:32]
cheeser quarkus [02:33]
cheeser Quarkus? It's a Kubernetes Native Java stack TAILORED for ~GraalVM and hotspot!! It's crafted from the best of breed Java libs and standards! It can be found at ! It will lead us all to the promised land! (It's a competitor to ~spring boot without all the pretension.) [02:33]
cheeser use that. be happy. [02:33]
cheeser you don't need to use graalvm to get the benefits. [02:33]
kenalex actually I love spring :) [02:34]
kenalex well ... spring boot [02:34]
dreamreal use whatever works. I use nodejs and java; java is FAR more regular, predictable, verifiable. [02:35]
dreamreal it's hard to beat nodejs for vomiting out rapid implementations that break when the wind blows. [02:35]
kenalex I use nodejs too, but mostly for frontend build scripts [02:36]
kenalex I ask because I read alot of articles saying big companies like paypal and netflix use it but I don't see anything with regards to how the structure their applications [02:37]
kenalex so I was curious as to how it would be used in large applications [02:37]
kenalex thanks guys. i guess I need to stop overthinking things :) [02:41]
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cheeser use java at a minimum, whichever framework you go with. node is just a terrible idea. [02:46]
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kenalex ok [02:49]
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wedr java + angular is probably the most common way of writing web development right now, I think. [03:22]
wedr or Java + VueJs/NodeJs/React/some other web framework. [03:22]
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[twisti] i think react has a lot more traction than angular these days [03:37]
ron is angular still a thing? [03:38]
yawkat yes [03:38]
kenalex I have been using angular since the version 1 days :) [03:39]
kenalex so I stuck with it because I am familiar with it :D [03:39]
ron eew [03:40]
dev4449 svelte seems to also be a thing these days [03:40]
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sbalmos ${js"Library"OfTheMinute} [03:55]
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sbalmos Gaah I think I'm getting as lost in this Typescript file as the person who wrote it. I can tell they got lost in what they were writing themselves just by certain logic omissions and ways they were naming variables [04:06]
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Burkuf I'm looking to track the time that it takes for methods to execute... How easy is it to implement an annotation that wraps the method in some measuring time code, or maybe an annotation that does that for all the methods of a class? how would I go about implementing that? [04:09]
dreamreal jmh [04:09]
dreamreal JMH is a micro benchmarking harness written in Java for the JVM, see [04:09]
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Burkuf thanks [05:03]
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rangergord Does anyone here use Bitbucket Pipelines? [07:26]
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hammond so guize is there a way to make a string like String sign=">"; if(a sign b){...} instead of doing a bunch of if statements on the sign? [10:25]
hammond not a bunch but [10:25]
leduyquang753 No, but you can make a Map that maps different strings to their corresponding operations. [10:28]
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hammond ok [10:29]
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