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« 2017-05-26


2017-05-28 »

Nick Message Date
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explodes For builders, are errors about "unset" values best thrown as NullPointerExeption, IllegalStateException, or IllegalArgumentException? [12:35]
cheeser ISE at best [12:36]
cheeser you should never explicitly throw an NPE [12:37]
sir_galahad_ad is that because you're not really working with pointers? [12:38]
cheeser it's because NPE has a very specific semantic [12:39]
CedricBeust You are really working with pointers [12:41]
adlaistevenson What is wrong with throwing Error? [12:47]
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cheeser because Error means something, too. [12:49]
cheeser Error is largely reserved for VM level failures not application errors [12:49]
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surial j4ckcom: english doesn't have sensible answers available when you ask negative questions. So, don't. Ask 'private and constructor are inherited?', at which point a 'nope' is clear. If you ask 'X isn't true', both 'no' and 'yes' are ambiguous. What mebigfatguy meant was: "Nope, private and constructor indeed are NOT inherited." Not "Nope, you didn't understand what I said". [10:47]
surial mebigfatguy: it's possible this is trolling, but english is dumbshit in this aspect; most other languages do have better ways to answer negative questions. As a result, non-english native speakers haven't learned not to ask questions like that. [10:48]
CedricBeust I don't think this guy is trolling, he was here last night. He's just completely clueless about Java. We asked him to go read the tutorial, don't know if he did [10:48]
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j4ckcom private and constructor indeed are NOT inherited == private and constructor aren?t herited CedricBeust [11:06]
CedricBeust Thanks but English contractions are not foreign to me. [11:07]
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j4ckcom both are same meaning. CedricBeust [11:07]
CedricBeust sighs [11:07]
mebigfatguy want to reconsider that troll possibility? [11:08]
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CedricBeust Still think he's not, just someone who's probably very young, who barely speaks English and is probably an irc beginner. [11:08]
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j4ckcom private and constructor are inherited? CedricBeust? [11:11]
cheeser NO! [11:11]
CedricBeust Stop asking this question j4ckcom [11:11]
j4ckcom ? [11:11]
CedricBeust And like we told you last night, stop pinging people's nicknames all the time [11:11]
j4ckcom ok [11:11]
adlaistevenson So Constructor is never inherited, except for Object's constructor if no constructor is defined on any super class or the class. [11:14]
newcoder cheeser: Hello, did you make any website with java? Do you run any java-website? [11:14]
bendem web frameworks [11:16]
bendem newcoder, Popular web frameworks: Dropwizard, Struts 2, Spring Boot, Stripes, Wicket, and Spark. Ask me about each for more info. Ask me about 'other web frameworks' for exotic choices that are not recommended. [11:16]
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j4ckcom newcoder: why you ping nickname? lol [11:17]
newcoder Is there any way to avoid frameworks? Which tools should I use avoiding frameworks? [11:17]
newcoder bendem: ^ [11:17]
liste newcoder: no, you shouldn't avoid frameworks [11:18]
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newcoder Why not? I want alternative to frameworks. [11:18]
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liste newcoder: because all java web dev is done via frameworks [11:18]
liste some frameworks are standardized though, like JSP, Servlet and JSF [11:19]
liste and JAX-RS [11:19]
newcoder Then I will pick struts 2, any problem with that? [11:20]
adlaistevenson web frameworks [11:21]
adlaistevenson adlaistevenson, what does that even *mean*? [11:21]
adlaistevenson web frameworks' [11:21]
adlaistevenson adlaistevenson, what does that even *mean*? [11:21]
newcoder web frameworks [11:21]
newcoder newcoder, what does that even *mean*? [11:21]
liste adlaistevenson: ~~ means that you want to address someone with the bot invocation [11:21]
liste just one ~ is enough for asking for yourself [11:22]
liste other web frameworks [11:22]
liste Popular but not recommended web frameworks: Play, Grails, JSF, Click. Things that are parts of frameworks: GWT, JAX-RS, Vaadin, ZK. [11:22]
newcoder other web frameworks [11:22]
newcoder newcoder, Popular but not recommended web frameworks: Play, Grails, JSF, Click. Things that are parts of frameworks: GWT, JAX-RS, Vaadin, ZK. [11:22]
newcoder Then I will pick struts 2, any problem with that? [11:22]
liste newcoder: I don't see a problem with it [11:23]
newcoder struts2 and spring, both with apache license, why apache produced 2 frameworks? [11:25]
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newcoder sorry, spring is made by pivotal software [11:26]
yawkat apache license != apache foundation [11:26]
adlaistevenson Hmm, I use GWT a lot. It's actually the only Java I know. (albeit without any of their library, we use a framework which is a port of Closure Library to Java). [11:27]
liste newcoder: there's multiple frameworks maintained by apache foundation [11:29]
newcoder liste: Why? [11:29]
liste newcoder: because they are architecturally different and suit different purposes [11:30]
newcoder If we need to make website without using any frameworks, then which tools should we use? I heard, some company make website without using frameworks. [11:31]
liste newcoder: then you'd basically build your own framework [11:31]
liste on top of sockets, probably [11:32]
newcoder What socket? [11:32]
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liste sockets, the API for TCP programming [11:32]
CedricBeust You will not be able to make a web site without using any frameworks [11:32]
newcoder CedricBeust: Why not? [11:33]
newcoder liste: You will use tomcat, why do you need tcp sockets? [11:33]
newcoder tomcat+jsp+servlets = website [11:33]
liste yeah, that's a shitty framework :-) [11:33]
newcoder I think, tcp socket is inside tomcat [11:33]
CedricBeust The irony here is that the people who understand a web stack and would be able to build such a thing from scratch will precisely choose not to because they understand how complex it is [11:33]
yawkat newcoder: servlets are a "framework" [11:34]
liste yawkat++ [11:34]
newcoder CedricBeust: What do you mean? [11:34]
CedricBeust newcoder: I mean that you don't know what you don't know, and people who know know better [11:35]
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newcoder So if i know servlet well, then do I need to use framework anymore? [11:38]
waz why would you not use a framework? [11:39]
waz it makes no sense not to [11:39]
liste newcoder: because servlet is crappy as a web framework [11:39]
waz if you know servlet well you can make a crappy webapp short a lot of modern features [11:40]
waz it's just a LOT more work [11:40]
waz with a few shit tons of work you could make a nice app with it [11:40]
waz but again, why [11:40]
waz do you think you can invent a better wheel? [11:40]
newcoder liste: Don't frameworks use servlet inside? [11:40]
liste newcoder: yes [11:40]
waz most do [11:41]
newcoder Then what's wrong using servlets? [11:41]
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waz then you add 1000s of hours of smart people adding features to make dev easier [11:41]
waz you stupid fuck, I've been told you [11:41]
waz grr [11:41]
waz telling [11:41]
_kmh_ newcoder, servlets are rather barebone [11:42]
waz you have this insane habit of asking questions and ignoring 90% of the answers [11:42]
_kmh_ i.e. not quite what you want from a rich framework [11:42]
liste _kmh_: or even a microframework :) [11:42]
waz heh [11:43]
_kmh_ liste, well imho at times frameworks are overrated [11:44]
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dreamreal newcoder: of course, a servlet is a framework itself.... [11:45]
dreamreal which makes the question kinda funny [11:45]
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newcoder Do you still need to use a frameworks if you want to make a personal blog website? [11:51]
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dreamreal nope, there's never a need to use a framework. You're always able to waste as much time as you like reinventing every wheel you choose. [11:51]
newcoder So when do we need to use a framework? [11:52]
newcoder How will someone know if he needs to use a framework or not? [11:52]
dreamreal when you want to leverage the work others put into building common tasks so you can get stuff done instead of, you know, reinventing every wheel.... [11:52]
newcoder leverage = ? [11:53]
dreamreal it's english [11:54]
dreamreal sorry, it has too many syllables: try "use" instead [11:54]
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dreamreal "when you want to use stuff others done instead of doing it on your own all the time" [11:54]
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dreamreal "i dint build this here lawn mower thing, some other dude builded it so I used it" <-- framework usage [11:55]
dreamreal trying to keep the syllable count down, trying to use the simplest words I can [11:55]
newcoder Ok [11:55]
dreamreal but if you don't want to use a framework, please, don't use one. Do it your way. [11:55]
dreamreal Who knows, maybe you'll find a better path than everyone else out there [11:56]
_kmh_ actually it also depends on the task at hand [11:56]
newcoder My path was to choose servlet and something like jsp for frontend [11:56]
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CedricBeust Don't use JSP [11:57]
newcoder jsp [11:57]
newcoder JSP stands for "Java Server Pages," a technology for writing templates for the web that was a great idea when there were no other options. You're unlikely to get help for it, because it gets far more complicated than it could be in zero time. Look up ~velocity, ~freemarker, and ~handlebars instead. More on JSP: [11:57]
liste newcoder: that's one framwork choice. not a very good one, but if that's what you're familiar with, then I guess it's an option [11:57]
dreamreal _kmh_: it doesn't depend on anything at all [11:58]
CedricBeust Let's not encourage bad frameworks. Don't use JSP, period. [11:58]
dreamreal here's the thing, guys: you shouldn't care [11:58]
dreamreal let him use what he wants [11:58]
j4ckcom what is cadence? i can?t understand cadence. [11:58]
j4ckcom ( [11:58]
dreamreal we have no investment in his success or failure or effort [11:58]
j4ckcom i know gear and speed [11:58]
CedricBeust He will use what he wants but it's my right to tell him what's stupid and what's not. [11:58]
dreamreal j4ckcom: it's an english word, go look it up [11:58]
newcoder What are the other options except servlet and not Dropwizard, Struts 2, Spring Boot, Stripes, Wicket, and Spark [11:58]
newcoder liste: ^ [11:58]
j4ckcom ok [11:58]
dreamreal CedricBeust: you have every right to do so, sure, just like everyone else has a right to be an ass [11:58]
kicked CedricBeust (I have a right to do this, too) [11:59]
dreamreal newcoder: gwt, tapestry, jax-rs and javascript, sitebricks, a thousand others [11:59]
dreamreal jsf [11:59]
newcoder a thousand others?! [12:00]
dreamreal probably more [12:00]
dreamreal there's always struts 1 too [12:00]
newcoder I think, servlet is built-in with java and others not, i may be wrong though [12:00]
dreamreal yep [12:00]
dreamreal you're wrong [12:00]
liste newcoder: you're wrong [12:00]
dreamreal liste ++ [12:00]
dreamreal liste has a karma level of 15, dreamreal [12:00]
dreamreal they all pretty much leverage the servlet api, in the end, because servlets are pretty basic building blocks for request/response apps like web apps (thus: servlets make up a framework in and of themselves, which makes your whole line of questioning hilarious) [12:01]
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dreamreal it's sort of like saying "I want to use a JVM but not a bytecode interpreter" [12:02]
liste newcoder: servlet and jsp are built into servlet containers, servlet, jsp, jsf and jax-rs are built into app servers [12:02]
dreamreal liste: bzzzt [12:02]
liste dreamreal: ? [12:03]
dreamreal well, no, I can see your point, I think it's a false distinction but whatever, it's all good [12:03]
dreamreal wanders off because he has other things to do [12:03]
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newcoder , I think, these are the popular ones [12:08]
newcoder dreamreal: ^ , [12:08]
newcoder gwt is not there [12:08]
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mebigfatguy thank god [12:10]
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ohtom how about a java engine thats a branch off of eniac [12:11]
newcoder ohtom: What do you mean? [12:12]
ohtom wanna see a video of what I'm branching off of erica? [12:13]
ohtom eniac [12:13]
ohtom sorry autocorrect.. [12:13]
mebigfatguy clearly a bad joke [12:13]
ohtom can java even be a branch of eniac since it is an owned language? [12:14]
ohtom i hope so [12:14]
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ohtom thats what I'm working on [12:15]
newcoder I know someone who is fed up with leaning new frameworks. [12:16]
CedricBeust That person is probably ready to change professions. There are plenty that don't require constantly learning new things [12:16]
newcoder CedricBeust: Which one will you select and you will not learn anything new? [12:17]
CedricBeust I have no idea what you're asking [12:18]
newcoder CedricBeust: Is there any one framework or tool you will select? [12:18]
newcoder CedricBeust: after that you will keep using it forever [12:18]
newcoder then you will not learn anything new [12:19]
waz no [12:19]
waz that's a crazy question [12:19]
waz software, hardware, languages all evolve [12:19]
newcoder He said this: "There are plenty that don't require constantly learning new things" [12:19]
waz though I suppose their are life long CICS developers I pity them [12:19]
waz right [12:19]
waz "Would you like fries with your whopper?" [12:20]
waz digging ditches [12:20]
Teckla waz: What if those CICS developers like what they're doing? [12:22]
waz I still pity them [12:22]
waz it means either they are less than bright or extremely happy not learning [12:22]
newcoder Some people are happy with C only. [12:24]
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sorressean I'm looking for a good solution to serialize a large graph of objects that can handle and/or remove circular dependencies, or allow me to just remove them myself. Any tips? It's for a game, so as I add stuff objects will change and that removes things like ProtoBuff. [12:32]
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waz that boy is such a massive idiot [12:44]
waz or troll [12:44]
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Silent Hello [01:11]
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Silent I would like to make an image editor that will help me make low-poly art [01:12]
Soni do you ever implement Iterable on an Iterator just so you can use syntax sugar (foreach) on it? [01:12]
Silent Would Java be a good choice for developing said project and make it cross-platform? [01:12]
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mebigfatguy if it's web based, yes [01:13]
mebigfatguy if it's a desktop product, i'd pick something else [01:13]
Silent mebigfatguy: What would you pick then? [01:13]
_Zephyr Java is a very good language for anything. I'd actually advise using it over others for a desktop product [01:13]
_Zephyr But why not just use already available editors? [01:14]
mebigfatguy somethign that does native quis good [01:14]
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mebigfatguy probably some thing with qt ... [01:14]
_Zephyr You can use Qt with Java... [01:15]
_Zephyr It's called Qt Jambi [01:15]
_Zephyr [01:15]
_Zephyr _Zephyr's title: "Qt Jambi Qt Jambi - Qt for Java" [01:15]
Silent _Zephyr: My favorite image editor is GIMP, but it would be easier for me to build a PoC from scratch than learn how to develop a proper plugin for an existing editor [01:15]
_Zephyr Are you sure about that? [01:16]
Silent Not 100% [01:16]
Silent The weird part is that I want to work with polygons a lot instead of pixels [01:17]
Silent But now that I think about it, maybe I should look into vector editors [01:17]
_Zephyr I'd probably advise that learning how to use the wheel in the way you need it to work is always better than re-inventing it [01:18]
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_Zephyr Projects such as GIMP take years to even get a base usable product ready, and they have a whole team of people behind the project [01:19]
Silent My goals are different from theirs though [01:21]
Silent I don't want to "force [01:22]
mebigfatguy if only they had spent some time thinking about an interface that makes sense [01:22]
Silent " a tool to work my way even if it is not intended to [01:22]
Silent I think inkscape might be a better bet but I am still not sure about it [01:22]
_Zephyr Inkscape is great! I use it to make icons all the time [01:23]
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_Zephyr I would at least try your options before even thinking about creating your own entire editor [01:24]
Silent This is close to what I am looking for, except it only produces gradients and not real images [01:24]
_Zephyr Try Inkscape [01:26]
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Silent I will [01:31]
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Soni do you ever implement Iterable on an Iterator just so you can use syntax sugar (foreach) on it? I find it pretty stupid that I can't for (Thing thing : thingIterator) {} but have to for (Thing thing : Iterables.of(thingIterator)) {} [01:43]
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_Zephyr Well it makes sense in terms of logic but not for ease of writing [01:44]
_Zephyr You could always create a User Snippet if you're using VSCode or something that allows that [01:44]
Soni I guess java8 adds this thing [01:45]
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Soni still tho [01:47]
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rjsachan Hello [01:48]
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mebigfatguy hai [01:49]
mebigfatguy Oh, hai: [01:49]
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Blankspace Hi what is everyone working on [01:56]
jodth07 Hello guys, I am running a simple db connection test, on a servlet, and I keep getting a cannot open exception [01:56]
jodth07 jodth07's title: " Snippet #419896" [01:56]
jodth07 here is the stacktrace [01:57]
jodth07 jodth07's title: " Snippet #419897" [01:57]
jodth07 Hey Blankspace, I am currently studying java, and working jsf [01:57]
jodth07 you? [01:57]
mebigfatguy you don't need the Class.forName line, btw [01:58]
jodth07 @mebigfatguy , I ll test that [01:59]
mebigfatguy that isn't your problem, just extraneous [01:59]
mebigfatguy is the driver jar on the classpath when you run? [01:59]
jodth07 Yeah, I realize that much [01:59]
jodth07 yes, It is [01:59]
mebigfatguy oh didn't look at the exception [02:00]
jodth07 it works fine testing it with main(), but [02:00]
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mebigfatguy ah works from command line, but not from glassfish [02:01]
mebigfatguy you should be getting connection from a DataSource configured from glassfish, really, not using DriverManager [02:02]
jodth07 I see [02:02]
jodth07 Thank you [02:03]
jodth07 I will try that [02:03]
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Blankspace Jodth nothing as of now [02:11]
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jodth07 Still looking [02:13]
jodth07 I have not used DataSource before, so, I am looking for how to use it. and other examples [02:13]
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asgs datasource [02:14]
asgs asgs, what does that even *mean*? [02:14]
mebigfatguy i don't know glassfish speciifcally, but typically you configure the database information external to your code in the app server, then find a DataSource thru jndi, and use it's apis to get connections [02:14]
Soni when should I use `assert false;`? [02:15]
asgs datasource is <reply>DataSource objects, which are the preferred means of getting a connection to a data source. DataSource objects can provide connection pooling and distributed transactions. More at [02:15]
asgs OK, asgs. [02:15]
asgs no, datasource is <reply>DataSource objects, which are the preferred means of getting a connection to a data source, can provide connection pooling and distributed transactions. More at [02:16]
asgs That factoid is locked, asgs [02:16]
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Soni when should I use `assert false;`? [02:17]
cheeser never? [02:17]
jodth07 @Soni can you provide more info? [02:17]
jodth07 What are you trying to do? [02:18]
Soni if (!set.add(i)) { /* shouldn't happen */ assert false; throw new IllegalStateException(); } [02:18]
jodth07 You don't need an assert there [02:19]
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jodth07 I am assuming that 'set' is a list of some kind! [02:20]
jodth07 does that answer your question? @Soni ? [02:20]
Soni set is a Set<Integer> and i is the position/head of an iterator. supposedly it should never happen but it can happen if you mutate (more specifically, add stuff to) the maps/sets you can get from the iterator [02:21]
mebigfatguy assert just throws an exceptoin, given that you are already throwing an exception, it would seem pointless [02:22]
Soni my IDE doesn't complain about `assert false;`, should I report it as a bug? [02:22]
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mebigfatguy no [02:22]
jodth07 PS @Soni, you can throw multiple exception in a code. So, I don't see why the IDE should complain [02:24]
mebigfatguy assert _conditionally throws [02:24]
mebigfatguy so it's not like you have back to back throws [02:24]
Soni eh, ok [02:26]
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rburton how are my fellow Americans (Excluding cheeser) [02:30]
rburton ;) [02:30]
jodth07 by americans, you mean people living in the continent America? or in the unUnited States of America? [02:31]
rburton /msg realDonaldTrump cheeser is still in the room. Should I get someone to kick/ban him for life for leaving the great mother land of America! [02:31]
rburton oh shit ;) [02:31]
jodth07 rburton, I guess you mean the great un U nitedStates of American then! [02:32]
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rburton ;) [02:32]
nkz pastebin [02:32]
nkz Please paste your code and any errors to - for actual runnable snippets use [02:32]
jodth07 dpaste [02:34]
jodth07 dpaste [02:34]
jodth07 jodth07, what does that even *mean*? [02:34]
jodth07 dpaste is another place to paste your code, it is simpler, and nice. [02:35]
jodth07 OK, jodth07. [02:35]
rburton pr3d4t0r: I got a Anova Culinary - doing some slow cooking at home ;0 [02:36]
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waz rburton what you cooking? [02:39]
waz oops, wrong chan :) [02:39]
rburton Steaks at the moment [02:39]
nkz Hey everyone, sorry for the noobish question. I recently enrolled in network programming class and I am trying to follow a simple example(my TA made) of server-client. We create BufferedReader and PrinterWriter in both client and server. Client sends a msg, server replies. What bothers me, is that during "chaining " [02:42]
nkz oops, pressed enter too son, gonna continue [02:43]
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rburton how many folks here use AWS [02:44]
nkz during chaining of PrinterWriter up to OutputStreamWriter, there is a weird "true" as second argument. I looked into docs and constructors show boolean argument doesn't exist. However, code compiles and works. If I delete boolean argument, it still compiles but messages don't go through. Here is the code: [02:45]
nkz Can anyone explain what's up with that? [02:45]
asgs it's auto flush. right there in the Java docs [02:46]
mebigfatguy javadoc, boolean) [02:46]
mebigfatguy mebigfatguy: [JDK:, boolean)] [02:46]
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mebigfatguy and you probably don't want to autoflush [02:48]
nkz mebigfatguy: oh, It's argument of PrinterWriter, my bad. I was looking into wrong constructors. [02:48]
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nkz thanks, I will look into how it works [02:50]
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AJavaIdiot Hi. I'm having a problem with concurrency. Here's a very short snippet: [03:21]
AJavaIdiot summary: I'm getting an IllegalMonitorStateException when waiting on a Condition, despite owning the lock. [03:22]
mebigfatguy you can't call wait() outside of a synchronized block [03:22]
AJavaIdiot I thought Condition overrode Object's wait and altered its semantics [03:23]
mebigfatguy what does getCondition return [03:23]
AJavaIdiot A Condition object (java.util.concurrent etc) [03:23]
AJavaIdiot [03:24]
mebigfatguy do you want await()? [03:24]
AJavaIdiot ... [03:24]
AJavaIdiot killing myself now lol [03:24]
AJavaIdiot thanks @mebigfatguy [03:24]
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emx a method requires the parameter byte[]. can i use ArrayList as actual parameter in some way? i imagined that ArrayList<Byte> would do the trick but it doesn't. [06:44]
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cheeser emx: only a byte[] is a byte[] [07:02]
emx cheeser, k, thanks [07:04]
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Akuma28 Hi guys, I have a question about javas memory management. Maybe someone can help me? Would be nice :) So I understand how the stack and heap work, but what I don't get is how java knows the type of the data. E.g. how is it able to differentiate between a reference, an integer, a float and a single character long string [09:37]
Akuma28 Does that mean java needs to store more than just information per stack variable? [09:37]
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Akuma28 Or does it get the variable type from the class/method definitions, and just checks the current stack size against the definition? [09:38]
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ChaiTRex As far as running it, I'd guess that the bytecode is created so that it already knows whether to treat something on the stack as a primitive or reference. You wouldn't expect int a = 5; to compile to bytecode that's confused about what a is. [10:01]
Akuma28 Oh I see, that makes sense, thanks. I forgot that there isn't dynamic typechecking like in scripting languages, so the bytecode will already be written in a way that the program can't be confused. [10:08]
ChaiTRex There is some dynamic checking. When you use a method on a reference, it checks that the class, which is stored in the object, can use the method. [10:09]
ChaiTRex But as far as primitive/reference, there's no need for a check. [10:09]
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ChaiTRex At least, I think it does. [10:11]
Akuma28 True, but I guess the bytecode already knows which signature is used, so it doesn't loop through all signatures everytime you call a method, but precomputes which method fits [10:12]
ChaiTRex That might instead be done by checking the class stored with the object when casting. [10:12]
ChaiTRex Then, you don't need to worry when calling the method. [10:13]
Akuma28 Yea [10:13]
Akuma28 I used to program in javascript for the past 5 years, now I transition to java. I teached some basic java courses at uni but that's about it. Now trying to go in full detail, luckily the languages aren't too different. [10:14]
Akuma28 Got an 5 hour interview next tuesday, so only 2 days left to get myself ready for it, I think I understand most of it, just lack experience with most frameworks :/ But still, they invited me even tho I told them in the previous 2 interviews that I mainly did javascript [10:15]
Akuma28 Makes me nervous :D [10:15]
ChaiTRex Ahh, I see. [10:16]
ChaiTRex Good luck on the interview. [10:17]
Akuma28 Thanks! [10:18]
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