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« 2019-01-09


2019-01-11 »

Nick Message Date
manojbagari [manojbagari!~manojbaga@2401:4900:2ee1:33f2:2584:1565:8cd0:8e4c] has joined #java-talk [12:01]
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KekSi 'morning [01:34]
gitness yo [01:35]
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Faux Ye. [02:07]
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AMcBain mbagari, fix your connection. [02:15]
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kicked mbagari (Banned: Your connection was causing a lot of quit spam. This expires in 10 minutes.) [02:22]
gitness Hi AMcBain [02:41]
AMcBain hi [02:42]
gitness how goes it? [02:42]
Faux "nothing would change and things do change" prime governmenting. [02:43]
AMcBain Watching my phone update and hoping it doesn't break again. [02:44]
gitness word [02:44]
gitness I'm looking at [02:45]
gitness my math friend invited me to a meetup [02:45]
gitness B) [02:45]
gitness is going to Hawaii [02:46]
gitness woohooo [02:46]
scav fotato: they teach Deutschs well. You should hear me speak that :D [02:51]
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sonOfRa fotato: eh your spoken english is fine I've heard you talk on cs [04:14]
scav Amazon DocumentDB (with MongoDB compatibility) [04:15]
scav scav's title: "Amazon DocumentDB (with MongoDB compatibility)" [04:15]
scav lol [04:15]
sonOfRa aka "Fuck you mongodb, for changing your license to 'open source except for amazon'" [04:15]
scav You played cs with foddo, sonOfRa [04:16]
scav ??? [04:16]
sonOfRa oh, I meant to highlight you obviously [04:16]
sonOfRa I have not heard fotato's voice [04:17]
scav Man it?s like Monday confusion [04:28]
Faux sonOfRa: Nice timing with [04:35]
Faux Faux's title: "December 2018 License-Review List Summary | Open Source Initiative" [04:35]
sonOfRa Faux: I mean, yeah [04:36]
sonOfRa That is rather obviously the reason they did this, no? [04:36]
Faux I'm more surprised that Mongo have found a license person who thinks they can get away with this, I think. [04:37]
surial Fuck me. [04:41]
Faux Okay. [04:42]
surial I agree with mongo's fight in this (I wonder where OSI and such stand). Their arguments for PAAS providers basically taking all foss money and contributing nothing back is fair. [04:42]
surial So, I should act. And for example threaten AWS I'm taking my business elsewhere. Which, clearly, amazon is going to ignore, I'm far too small a player. But morally I am still obligated to do this. [04:42]
sonOfRa should've licensed mongo under AGPL then [04:43]
surial But taking my business elsewhere is going to take me quite some time. [04:43]
Faux That's a reasonable requirement. It's not compatible with, say, mongo being in Debian, though. [04:43]
[twisti] how do PASS providers take foss money ? [04:43]
Faux They are profiting from hosting and supporting mongo without contributing to mongo. [04:44]
surial I don't really have that time which means I have to accept some turpitude. I strongly dislike putting pragmatism over ethics. [04:44]
Faux (The GPL is irrelevant for a cloud service.) [04:44]
surial [twisti]: Imagine FOSS just did not exist. It was microsoft-style shit all the way up and down the chain. [04:44]
sonOfRa Faux: hence AGPL [04:44]
sonOfRa It would solve the problem! [04:44]
sonOfRa Nobody would use mongo anymore! [04:44]
Faux It would prevent anyone with money using mongo in production at all. _ [04:45]
surial In fact, yeah, that works best: There are only 2 major providers of stacks: YOu have microsoft, with mssql, windows NT, C# and that whole runtime, etc. On the other side there's sun with solaris and a unix stack. [04:45]
surial and java, etc. [04:45]
surial In this world, amazon offers AWS. There is no linux. [04:45]
surial Amazon would get completely fucked over. Whatever money they get to charge, microsoft and sun will just eat it up by raising prices. Eventually if the business is solid enough microsoft and sun themselves (especially sun, _obviously_) will start their own PAAS platforms, and will win, because they can take their closed source OS and tweak it to run perfectly on exactly their specific hardware and arrangement. [04:46]
Faux I think surial's point is best summarised by "capitalism is fucked, news at 11". [04:46]
surial The only real option amazon has is to make their own OS. [04:46]
surial Faux: no. [04:46]
AMcBain .oO( "There is no Linux, only GNU." ;P ) [04:46]
surial Which is a very _VERY_ pricy action. [04:46]
surial But, FOSS is a thing, so amazon is not fucked. [04:46]
surial This story has happened before. A lot, even. And often if you want to be in the 'ooooh I get to use this foss stuff and therefore exist and I get to charge prices such that I keep a fair amount for myself. If my idea is really succesful, I get to be dagobert duck for a bit even, no sword of damocles where if I am truly runaway succesful, corporation X will swoop in and take every penny'... and in return you do have to sign [04:48]
surial up to the rules of FOSS, contribute a little back, and know that whilst you will get all money due to you, you don't get to close the door right after. [04:48]
AMcBain I'm not sure what's so hard about contributing back at least something. It's not like anyone is going to be able to take those possible patches and instantly (or even less so) make something that directly competes with Amazon at scale. [04:48]
surial See also which is in my head. That article blew my mind. [04:48]
surial But, PAAS fucks with that model: By keeping their software on their own servers they don't have to contribute their updates back. As AMcBain said: All that aws has to do for 'fairness' is to take whatever patches they made to linux, mongo, whatever to make it run well in PAAS environments. They can do so in a fairly shitty fashion and the software they contribute can be idiotically overspecified to their _EXACT_ hardware [04:50]
surial standards, as long as htey don't actively obfuscate it (as defined by: The software they work on internally is different than what is published, that's not okay). [04:50]
surial THat's not a big ask. [04:50]
surial But it is the line. Amazon crossed it so the FOSS community should band together and start a war. With all niceties due such a declaration: I'd start by making it crystal clear to amazon that they've taken a pricey fucking road. [04:51]
surial unfortunately there's some smudging going on of this line, this isn't the first run-in PAAS has with FOSS, and amazon isn't the only one. This is the first time I've seen something that is blatantly, unreservedly over the line. [04:51]
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[twisti] i still dont get how that takes money from FOSS [05:54]
surial poor choice of words on my part. The monetary value created by FOSS existence normally goes to all parties that use it, but now a large amount goes to PAAS providers. [05:57]
[twisti] ah, ok, that makes more sense [05:59]
scav Overall aws should focus more on sucking less and less on adding new data ?stores? [06:05]
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acuzio morning ladies [06:51]
acuzio Mongo guys added something called Mongo Atlas to try and combat this , however thats not really panned out well., simply because of course AWS is a lot bigger in scale and can/will undercut on prices. [06:57]
acuzio PAAS providers are fostering a lock-in and in reality it just takes away the value of Open source and open standards , however as in most cases, convenience wins all [06:57]
waz I've talked to 3 companies in the last month that have moved most things to AWS API Gateway backed by Lambdas [07:02]
acuzio The AWS API Gateway is of course properietary [07:02]
Faux I'm amazed Lambda has done so well. [07:02]
acuzio In terms of cost, I dont think this is really sustainable at high scale .As an example , HSBC attempted to move a large part of their infra to AWS and ended up getting a cost of 1M/day for 1 of their department. [07:03]
Faux D [07:03]
Faux I was wondering what the TCO of some of our trivial services would be on Lambda, vs. wedging them into an existing deployment infra. [07:04]
acuzio Google waltzed in with open wallets and have now given them outrageous discounts [07:04]
Faux Google might have the expectation that they accidentally spend $1MM in a day and hence cover all the costs they could possible generate forever. [07:05]
acuzio The Big G is trying to get into teh Enterprise Cloud Market and of course AWS is incumbent there [07:06]
acuzio Its not a secret that the HSBC CTO for that business line got fired when the line-item came across that their spend was 1M USD/day [07:06]
Faux TOO BIG TO FAIL [07:07]
Faux [07:08]
sonOfRa Whoopsie. The head of the Bremen AfD (german proto-nazis) got attacked two days ago. AfD first published a press statement that he was assaulted with a 2x4, and when he was down, he was repeatedly kicked in the head by his assailants, and that he is in heavy danger for his life in the hospital. [07:08]
acuzio that is impressively fast Faux [07:08]
sonOfRa He left the hospital last night [07:08]
sonOfRa There's CCTV footage, there was no 2x4, and there was also no kicks to the head, he fell over forwards after being hit in the back, and the assailants immediately fled [07:09]
Faux I hope they're executed. [07:09]
acuzio I am staying away from all politics . I dont understand it and i dont think its understandable. [07:09]
Faux Political or racially motivated attack. [07:09]
Faux D [07:09]
Faux "Murdered boy in London 'for new start'". [07:10]
acuzio fuck knows mate , i dont see how the UK is so sanguine about leaving the EU [07:15]
acuzio Given that the fucking country doesnt produce anything and has no deal at this point [07:15]
Faux I explained before. It's easy. We're going to get 350mm/week in reduced spending, and we're going to get sovereignty over our legal system. Also, we're going to have fewer immgrunts! [07:16]
Faux Do you not want one of those things? Are you retarted? [07:16]
acuzio I am not even sure if thats with a /s or not , [07:17]
acuzio i honestly dont know [07:17]
sonOfRa Faux, married to his french wife, has become a brexiteer, yes [07:18]
Faux Assuming those things actually happen, at least two of them are good. [07:18]
sonOfRa Totally not /s [07:18]
Faux I would accept arguments that the legal thing is bad due to y'know trade but we could at least pick to accept all the laws. [07:19]
Faux And that it's bad because our government might go insane and illegally ruin workers rights etc. If you think that's a bad thing. [07:19]
Faux One of my Jewbrew co-workers just responded to my "lunch" message with "Bona-petite". Hurrr. [07:25]
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acuzio Jewbrew ?? [07:36]
waz a nazi drink [07:48]
Faux My guess of the person's cultural identity and mother tongue, given only their city of employment, name, and samples of their English. [07:55]
Faux Three things I've never seen from acuzio. [07:55]
acuzio whats wrong with my English ? [07:55]
sonOfRa I, don't , know.. [07:58]
acuzio yes thank you sonOfRa [07:58]
sonOfRa ) [07:58]
jink D [08:00]
[twisti] < Faux> And that it's bad because our government might go insane and illegally ruin ... <- yeah, no chance of that happening in good old brittain. you have a spectacular track record there. [08:03]
acuzio I will not be surprised that the UK gets split and have SCotland as a separate country with Northern Ireland and Ireland getting another round of deep violence. [08:04]
acuzio Would love to be around to see this happening., and hopefully at that point the media asks them real questions [08:04]
[twisti] like "why does acuzio stand everyone up" and "whats with all the punctuation marks and spaces, dude?" ? [08:05]
Faux [twisti]: As a white mill^Wlandowner I fail to see any issues with this as it relates to me personally! [08:08]
Faux He explained the punctuation. [08:08]
Faux It was pretty interesting. [08:08]
[twisti] he did ? [08:09]
[twisti] was it that he has a spastic retardation ? [08:09]
Faux He worked on a trading desk, yes. [08:09]
[twisti] and on trading desks they spray random commas and periods and spaces into sentences ? [08:10]
jink Check out @alanfeuer?s Tweet: [08:10]
jink jink's title: "Alan Feuer on Twitter: "The only thing more astonishing than these marital messages is how the government got them. Turns out, Chapo was using Flexi-spy spyware to monitor Emma's phone. The IT guy installed it. He told the FBI. The FBI subpoenaed Flexi-Spy. Poof. Chapo's texts w/his wife."" [08:10]
Stephmw [twisti]: that'd be news to me... if anything, traders I work with are incredibly detail-focused [08:12]
sonOfRa yes that's the point of the random commas and everything [08:12]
sonOfRa Conveying inflection etc [08:12]
surial okay, my convictions about mongo's SSPL and amazon's violations have been assuaged some: this was a useful read. [08:13]
surial surial's title: "The Observation Deck Open source confronts its midlife crisis" [08:13]
[twisti] jink: thanks for the link, thats a hilarious read [08:13]
jink It is. Wow. [08:15]
acuzio The punctuation marks are is just learned behavior from 14 years of working with Traders , i have to consciously try and avoid it. It slips thru when i am typing fast [08:15]
jink It's ok. We still love you. Kinda. [08:15]
acuzio thanks jink :-) [08:16]
Faux [twisti]: I understand the idea is to express natural conversation idioms in text, i.e. the "uh, um" as your brain stalls. To make the other side understand that you have thought between two parts of a sentence. [08:18]
sonOfRa Hooray [08:18]
acuzio And its specific to folks who use the BBG Terminal extensively [08:18]
[twisti] horrible [08:18]
acuzio That is still a wide enough group of people though [08:19]
[twisti] ive used aol for 14 years but you dont see me typing like a borderline retarded person [08:19]
sonOfRa My graphics card is here. My new cable however, is in the mailbox, and the gf, who is at work, has the mailbox keys :( [08:19]
Faux Most of them retired after 14 years of trading, though. [08:19]
Faux [twisti]: <3 [08:19]
[twisti] sorry, i cant count that as an excuse [08:19]
Faux sonOfRa: Prime Now some picks! [08:19]
Faux Probably not illegal in Germany on even numbered days. [08:19]
sonOfRa It'll just arrive in the same mailbox [08:19]
sonOfRa Cable is from amazon. [08:20]
Faux Order more and more until it doesn't fit. [08:20]
Faux Then use the overflows to open the box. [08:20]
sonOfRa D [08:21]
Faux Gotta think outside the box. [08:21]
jink Heh. [08:22]
sonOfRa she'll be here in like an hour [08:22]
sonOfRa Hopefully [08:23]
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sonOfRa hooray [08:48]
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sonOfRa GPU works (at least on linux) [08:48]
Faux \o/ [08:48]
sonOfRa now to see what windows thinks of changed hardware [08:49]
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sonOfRa windows seems fine with it, but the nvidia graphics settings thingy seems to think the optimal settings shouldn't change between a 760 and a 2070 [08:56]
acuzio Whats the card name sonOfRa ? [08:57]
sonOfRa RTX 2070 [08:57]
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KekSi that's the naming schema they're going with? [09:00]
KekSi 8xx -> 9xx -> 10xx -> 20xx? [09:01]
KekSi fuck gpus and fuck PCMR bullshit, i'm so fed up with all this :x [09:01]
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freeone3000 Nvidia drivers now support freesync. Woo. [09:04]
fotato Sort of. [09:06]
fotato Ish. [09:06]
fotato They ?tested? all the freesync monitors to see which would ?support? it. [09:06]
fotato The cynic in me wonders if it was more a case of ?which manufacturers gave us money? [09:06]
fotato It?s only like 19 monitors that support it. [09:07]
freeone3000 surial: Microsoft *has* a PaaS platform. It's called Azure. [09:07]
freeone3000 It's 19 monitors and 16 of them are by one manufacturer. [09:07]
surial yes, absolutely. But amazon is a player (hell, bigger, even) because FOSS exists. [09:07]
surial the fact that MS also entered the biz just goes to show that, if microsoft had significant horizontal product power, they'd have used it. They have before, as have many other companies. It'd be crazy to imagine if there was no ready alternative like linux, microsoft would have 'allowed' AWS's business model. [09:08]
freeone3000 Yes, and that's the point of open source. [09:08]
surial indeed, and mongo is sort of trying to go: This PaaS shit aint fair, they are abusing our good work and taking all the monies with em. All we ask is that they contribute all the patches and updates back, but they don't have to because they don't distribute the software. [09:09]
freeone3000 well, no. agpl brings gpl virality to network linkages. they'd not only have to contribute back mongo patches, they'd have to contribute the entirety of aws. [09:10]
freeone3000 sorry, sspl. [09:11]
surial but, the 2 relevant blog posts: [09:11]
surial surial's title: "The Observation Deck Open source confronts its midlife crisis" [09:11]
freeone3000 agpl limits it reasonably to things linking against just that service, which is what mongodb 3.6 is licensed under. [09:11]
surial say it far more eloquently than I can. [09:11]
freeone3000 Okay they can say whatever they want but that's not what's in the license. [09:11]
freeone3000 Like, one of these has the force of law behind it and it ain't the blog post. [09:11]
surial fair point, it's even more complicated than those two paint. [09:12]
grug 6666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 [09:12]
surial grug: ooookay. [09:12]
freeone3000 Honestly the sspl thing does fix one thing, and that's their own client drivers being non-gpl-complaint. [09:13]
freeone3000 (because they link against mongo, see, so they should be agpl as well.) [09:13]
freeone3000 It's a dang minefield. We only have two license blanket bans - AGPL and SSPL. It's not worth touching for us. [09:14]
freeone3000 Which I suppose is what they were looking for? [09:15]
freeone3000 But I don't see how the situation this created is better. [09:15]
acuzio AGPL is a fucking minefield [09:16]
freeone3000 (also, less newsworthily, cosmosdb also implements a document storage strategy and is mongodb driver complaint) [09:17]
Addax which is the AGPL? [09:24]
freeone3000 Addax: [09:25]
freeone3000 freeone3000's title: "GNU Affero General Public License - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation" [09:25]
Addax so viral, plus mandates modified source be available to the public? [09:26]
freeone3000 those are the terms of the regular gplv3. agpl adds network usage to the definition of linking. [09:27]
Addax hrm, okay, yuck [09:28]
acuzio well what else would you have ? i mean someone like Mongo is spending shit loads of cash on it , how are they supposed to recoup that ? [09:28]
freeone3000 I'm going to go with "how other companies make money is not our problem" [09:29]
freeone3000 But traditionally (and currently!), support, services, features only available in a second, closed-source version (including some really annoying ones like *SSL* and *authentication on replica sets*), hosting, and their own services. [09:30]
acuzio yeah well [09:30]
freeone3000 They could also drop the entire open-source pretense and just go head-to-head with the other database providers in the space. [09:35]
acuzio you mean Mongo ? [10:16]
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sonOfRa haha [10:29]
sonOfRa The graphics card I bought yesterday and got today is 10? cheaper in the same store today <.< [10:29]
acuzio surely you can return it [10:29]
sonOfRa I'm just going to ask them to refund me the 10? [10:30]
sonOfRa That is, logistically, the sane thing to do for them [10:30]
sonOfRa Because me sending it back (on their cost, because customer service), and then ordering it again, them sending it ot me again... [10:30]
sonOfRa Is definitely more expensive for them [10:30]
acuzio agreed [10:30]
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freeone3000 Deployment document. Version column reads: ServiceA: 1.1. ServiceB: r24. ServiceC: e01ef75. [10:33]
freeone3000 DevOps has not been kind to us. [10:33]
acuzio Is it WEbScale ? [10:34]
sonOfRa well, they don't want to give me the rebate [10:41]
sonOfRa Fuckers [10:41]
sonOfRa I don't really feel like packing everything back up and sending it back either [10:41]
acuzio leave a bad review on their side [10:42]
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freeone3000 Apparently John McAfee has entered the Molokai annual whale fucking contest. [11:36]
sonOfRa of course he has [11:37]
acuzio i am not sure why this is not more frequent : [11:43]
acuzio acuzio's title: "Former Insys CEO pleads guilty to opioid kickback scheme | Reuters" [11:43]
sonOfRa Because it's really fucking hard to prove [11:44]
acuzio "His plea comes less than three weeks before five former Insys executives and managers including John Kapoor, its onetime billionaire founder and former chairman, face trial after being charged with participating in the scheme." [11:45]
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freeone3000 "can someone explain sugar pies to me?" "like pecan pies, but instead of pecans, sugar." [12:38]
fotato so like treacle tarts [12:39]
fotato (PIES HAVE LIDS FIGHT ME) [12:39]
freeone3000 but nine inches across, yes. [12:39]
freeone3000 we don't have a separate word for Tart of Substantial Size! [12:39]
fotato "your mum" [12:40]
tang^ TOSS? [12:40]
freeone3000 fotato++ [12:40]
freeone3000 fotato has a karma level of 7, freeone3000 [12:40]
fotato aw i should probably move back to foddo. [12:40]
fotato a tartlet is a small tart tho [12:41]
fotato a tart is already like 9-12 inches. [12:41]
fotato you live in canada, you should have this word [12:41]
fotato *FRENCH canada [12:41]
freeone3000 it's a tarte au sucre but 'tarte de pommes' has a lid so [12:42]
fotato flips tables. [12:42]
acuzio I now eat to tart [01:11]
ron waz: you like dark chocolate right? [01:16]
waz yep [01:17]
waz I eat a lot of it [01:17]
ron waz: ever tried alter eco? [01:17]
waz typically 88% [01:17]
waz I haven't [01:18]
waz Green & Blacks is really good [01:18]
waz Endangered Species is too [01:18]
ron if you get a chance, try their deep dark sea salt one [01:18]
ron I liked alter eco better than endagered species [01:18]
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acuzio Green&Blacks is really gooc [01:27]
acuzio good even [01:27]
freeone3000 good [01:30]
freeone3000 we now have a logging exploit in linux [01:30]
freeone3000 because systemd allocates logs to its stack [01:30]
freeone3000 up to 768MB of them [01:31]
fotato Green & Blacks is pretty ace. The maya gold one is surprisingly decent as a flavoured chocolate. [01:36]
fotato There were always some fun expensive single estate bars to be found in the confectionary store in Liberty. They were strong enough that you ate them slow enough to justify the cost. [01:37]
fotato Like, it?s pretty amazing how different cocoa can taste. [01:50]
acuzio yeah the systemd exploit [01:57]
Faux RUST [01:57]
Faux Windows had a second(?) dhcp memory corruption exploit this week. [01:58]
acuzio Thats not news Faux , thats BAU [01:58]
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freeone3000 BAU? [02:39]
freeone3000 I'd also be surprised if it's only the second. [02:40]
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