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« 2020-01-12

2020-01-13

2020-01-14 »

Nick Message Date
KekSi re [01:00]
KekSi and a happy new year to everyone [01:01]
puppy_za hi KekSi [01:15]
puppy_za happy new year [01:16]
db wb KekSi [01:18]
puppy_za how was your holiday? [01:29]
KekSi had good and bad things [01:33]
KekSi still haven't come up with an overall conclusion whether it was good or bad [01:34]
KekSi but i can say indian culture isn't for me.. [01:34]
KekSi what i can definitely say is i need to find a new job, i do not want to be back in this hellhole right now.. (been here for an hour and only met a new colleague i haven't met before) [01:35]
puppy_za I see [01:37]
puppy_za well, new year, new resolution, and maybe new job [01:37]
KekSi mostly feeling depressed and should quit alcohol for a longer while [01:38]
KekSi or for good [01:38]
KekSi had something of a psychosis on friday.. went out drinking until 7:30 and then tried to call the BKA (germanys equivalent of the FBI) because i was convinced i had just danced with an iranian princess that was moved out of the club by italian mobsters.. [01:39]
KekSi then proceeded to trash my living room/desk trying to find something (no idea what) and slept for 10 hours [01:39]
KekSi that is some weird behavior and i can't remember much of it but it scares me... [01:40]
puppy_za mmm [01:41]
puppy_za yeah, maybe seek for some professional help [01:42]
KekSi why did i still go out after leaving the pub (when they closed around 2) i have no idea either - probably chasing ass.. [01:42]
KekSi yes, i got the process started on getting back into psychotherapy a couple of weeks before the vacation when i started feeling depressed more often [01:43]
KekSi psychologist said she's going to read through my file and check the rules if i can start over or continue the therapy i finished a year and a half ago [01:44]
KekSi told me to call on the 13th so i'm doing that later (in the slim time span she's reachable) [01:45]
puppy_za I mean, losing memories of hours is a trope in many sci-fi stories, but rarely makes a good life experience :p [01:47]
KekSi on vacation i also got bit by a leech and the spot has some blisters now (2 weeks later) so i'm thinking about seeing my regular GP aswell for general blood tests.. which i should be doing anyway because i have a weird kind of cough that hasn't gone away in 6 weeks [01:48]
KekSi and i've woken up with my arm asleep several times on vacation (no idea -- maybe shitty beds? maybe first indicators of an incoming heart attack?..) [01:49]
KekSi i'm not a hypochondriac (unlike 2 of my closest friends) but even i'm thinking something is going wrong atm [01:49]
bobek [bobek!~bobek@unaffiliated/bobek] has joined #java-talk [01:50]
KekSi i've had blackouts from drinking before (quite often tbh.. i usually remember the outline but totally forget about details.. but i've been drinking very excessively on weekends for several months) [01:51]
puppy_za mmm, blister part might have parasites [02:00]
puppy_za definitely get it checked out [02:00]
db so, business as usual? great ;) [02:01]
db boreliosis... could be many things. [02:01]
puppy_za I am just saying, don't die on us, KekSi. :p [02:05]
TomTom [TomTom!uid45892@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bgikbtovcgkfqphs] has joined #java-talk [02:08]
KekSi yeah, not planning on it [02:09]
KekSi but feeling depressed and worthless a lot lately so that's not helping at all.. [02:09]
KekSi last time i felt like that i had work to keep me going.. now i fear the future and jobsearch with my impostor syndrome with 0 actual coding in the last few years... [02:10]
KekSi to top that all off i have no appetite and lost about 8kg in the last 5 months.. i'm very familiar with that from the 2017 depression.. [02:14]
puppy_za ( [02:15]
puppy_za I'm glad you are aware of it now [02:16]
KekSi i very much am.. i know how to make it better but am still terrified and frightened by it.. go see my GP, my psychiatrist, my psychologist and find another job [02:17]
KekSi all of which is.. too much for me right now [02:18]
puppy_za I would suggest to see your GP first [02:21]
puppy_za get the blister treated - god knows what happened at the leech bite-site [02:21]
puppy_za as for job seeking, you can always do it later (or until you can't take it anymore) [02:22]
KekSi i've been fed up with my workplace for several years and started thinking about leaving about 2 years ago [02:53]
KekSi ill go see my GP tomorrow morning [02:53]
KekSi can't make it today -- have an ophthalmologist appointment at 15:40 and have to call my psychologist around 1 [02:54]
KekSi should've been there shortly before they opened at 8 -- otherwise there's a lot of waiting involved.. [02:56]
KekSi and couldn't do that on the very first day back at work (several new people stated and we have an introductory meeting at 10) [02:58]
Matthijs [Matthijs!~quassel@unaffiliated/matthijs] has joined #java-talk [03:05]
[twisti] anyone got any good arguments for something like slack/mattermost ? we are trying to get our company to adopt it to make life easier for people remoting, but our bosses got the idea that its 'just a chat app' [03:07]
AMcBain It can be that, but it can be useful for teams I suppose. Getting quick feedback on stuff or seeing if people know about stuff that a brush with Google didn't find. Slack if you're not worried about someone else hosting it, Mattermost if you are. :P [03:11]
AMcBain Plenty of things are heading in that direction. IM always felt like you wanted to add one more person, but they had to be explicitly invited and couldn't rejoin if they left, and adding them feels like an immediate imposition, whereas Slack doesn't as much, imo. [03:12]
AMcBain Even Microsoft is going there, what with Teams. (I'd still prefer something like Slack over Teams, but it works fine.) [03:13]
[twisti] yeah we were thinking of going with mattermost; we work for governments so self hosting is a big pro [03:38]
scav I hate Slack for a multitude of reasons, but self hosting is not a guarantee for anything imo. I assume Slack (like any other serious contender in the enterprise market) has their own data-sharing agreements available [03:40]
AMcBain That was my point though, I don't think Slack offers a self-hosted option. [03:41]
scav Probably not, as their infrastructure used to be a pile of shit written in PHP they probably want to hide that from people [03:43]
AMcBain Well, based on my last workplace I'd say we just used such a thing for arbitrary chats (nobody spent any significant time chatting, of course). In my current job the team I'm in uses it quite a bit. So as long as it doesn't really cost anything to try out something like Mattermost, just go for it and see what happens. [03:47]
[twisti] i dont really care all that much, but a lot of our government contracts require us to self host stuff [03:48]
[twisti] its cargo cultish [03:48]
AMcBain Last job it was Mattermost (though we started with our own self-built odd chat server thing, then went to HipChat before the company decided not to pursue more licenses and Atlassian pulled it) and my current job uses MS Teams. [03:48]
AMcBain Hmm, gov't stuff isn't all self-hosted though. There's some gov't certified Amazon cloud thing, iirc. [03:50]
[twisti] in germany everyone does their own shit and most government departments dont understand enough to ask for anything else [03:52]
AMcBain -/ [03:53]
scav AMcBain: yes, but as far as I know, that is primarily US gov`t certified, but I could be wrong [03:54]
AMcBain Oh, yeah. That's what I was referring to. I realized after I sent it that there are, of course, people from other countries in here (duh!). :) [03:54]
AMcBain Does remind me... I need to get my changes finished on one of my own self-hosted apps and checked in... :P I won't need them for another 9 months, but... :D [04:03]
scav p [04:06]
sonOfRa morning [04:11]
scav mornin, sonOfRa [04:20]
puppy_za hi sonOfRa [04:32]
acuzio morning ladies [04:45]
Lengsdorfer [Lengsdorfer!~Lengsdorf@unaffiliated/lengsdorfer] has joined #java-talk [05:04]
sonOfRa So now that I got some decent cocktail mixing gear for my birthday, what ingredients do I start buying to mix things? [05:48]
grug sand [05:54]
sonOfRa gruggo! [05:54]
KekSi something to make decent ice cubes, brown sugar, white sugar, lemons..? [05:54]
sonOfRa Sand sounds like it might not be the best cocktail ingredient, but I'm not sure [05:54]
sonOfRa KekSi: right, those are the obvious things, I was thinking more along the lines of what booze and what cocktails I'm gonna make :D [05:55]
KekSi depends on what cocktails you want to mix i suppose? light rum, dark rum, vodka, things like grenadine and the like and various juices and you should have a good chunk of a solid cocktail menu covered [05:57]
grug sonOfRa: waddup! [05:58]
scav sonOfRa: whisky [06:18]
[twisti] so im writing a gitlab ci script that runs in a docker container and sshs into another computer and docker execs into a container and calls a script as another user via bash -c (dont ask) because of course i am [06:24]
[twisti] and the level of escaping indirection is just insane [06:25]
[twisti] it hurts my brain [06:25]
ron morning [06:31]
ron ish [06:31]
scav [twisti]: did you guys go out of your way to make things complicated? [06:40]
[twisti] that *IS* our way [06:41]
sonOfRa Are you doing it because you don't have docker-capable runners? [06:43]
scav Do they even exist? [06:43]
[twisti] no, no. those run on a different docker host, because reasons. [06:43]
sonOfRa D [06:43]
sonOfRa scav: yeah, you can run docker commands in gitlab ci scripts if the runner supports it [06:44]
[twisti] the sane solution would be to open the remote docker host to ssh-tunnel-connections, i think [06:44]
scav sonOfRa: yeah, I know. My question was: "does a runner that does not support docker exist?" based on your statement :p [06:44]
scav [twisti]: depeneds on what your are solving here. So what are you solving? [06:45]
scav You can trust me, I know everything. I work in a SRE team. [06:46]
[twisti] scav: the riddle of how i got this headache [06:46]
KidBeta [KidBeta!~Kidbeta@hpavc/kidbeta] has joined #java-talk [06:46]
Matthijs [Matthijs!~quassel@unaffiliated/matthijs] has joined #java-talk [06:46]
scav This area is primarily headaches [06:51]
FabioP [FabioP!501123ce@host206-35-static.17-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #java-talk [07:05]
FabioP i got a raise at my company, i should send a thank you email, right? [07:06]
grug send a thankyou email to everyone in the company [07:07]
scav noooooo [07:07]
FabioP everyone?? [07:08]
scav you never say "thank you" for a pay raise. i have no idea where this idea that "i owe my company shit" originated from? i can only imagine it came about as a nice way to control the slave....i mean workers [07:08]
FabioP no, really? [07:09]
sonOfRa scav: heh, fun story that, in germany employer and employee are "labour giver" and "labour taker" [07:11]
sonOfRa *in that order* [07:11]
scav same in norway [07:11]
grug write a letter [07:11]
sonOfRa which is hilarious if you think about it [07:11]
FabioP a pen wrote letter? :D [07:11]
scav slave master and slave is a better name [07:11]
scav grug: stfu :D [07:11]
scav scripting for jenkins must be what draging barb wire across your nipples feels like. i only wish my exprience was the nipple one and not actually working with jenkins [07:12]
FabioP should i send some flowers at least? [07:15]
scav since you are actively ignoring me, im going to either conclude you are a troll or just simply a bit dumb. if it's the latter case, send flowers, write letters and make sure they all know you know how lucky you are [07:16]
FabioP oh wow man [07:17]
FabioP calm a bit [07:17]
FabioP i was making a joke and i didn't ignore everyone [07:17]
scav this is me being calm [07:17]
FabioP anyone [07:17]
FabioP ok then don't be a douche [07:18]
KidBeta [KidBeta!~Kidbeta@hpavc/kidbeta] has joined #java-talk [07:18]
waz [waz!~waz@pdpc/supporter/active/waz] has joined #java-talk [07:21]
surial FabioP: scav wasn't being a douche. It's IRC, emotion doesn't come across. Don't assume the worst intentions like that. [07:34]
surial FabioP: He's just having a laugh, just like you were. Why do you get to joke but scav must be deadly serious? No ? just.. don't assume the worst like this. Or do, and grow a spine / flame retardant; either way is fine, but one of those two for IRC, please. [07:35]
FabioP surial ok so having a laugh now means call a stranger on irc "a bit dumb" and tell him to "grow a spine" because he can't have a laugh after being told is dumb? [07:38]
FabioP are java guys always this angry and bitter? [07:39]
waz FabioP grow up [07:39]
FabioP lol [07:39]
waz take the whining somewhere where it's on topic [07:39]
FabioP you don't get to tell me to grow up, sorry [07:39]
waz I do [07:39]
FabioP i'm not off topic either [07:39]
FabioP no you don't, you can try because you're in a chat, that's all [07:39]
waz your feelings are off topic [07:40]
FabioP i never mentioned my feelings at all [07:40]
scav sigh. just don't write a fucking thank you letter for getting a raise. [07:41]
KidBeta [KidBeta!~Kidbeta@hpavc/kidbeta] has joined #java-talk [07:41]
FabioP yeah i duly noted your point of view [07:41]
puppy_za what kind of raise did you get? If it's inflation-related then it is not really a raise. [07:42]
scav "my point of view" [07:42]
FabioP it was a promotion [07:42]
scav some positions or promotions dictate some soft of response, but safe to say, since you don't know whether or not to thank anyone for it, you should not worry about it [07:43]
surial Wow, again with the bad intentions? I told FabioP to stop misinterpreting... _OR_ I guess if he's hellbent on doing that, to grow a spine. Which gets read to: "This surial asshole told me to GROW A SPINE! The nerve!!!". [07:45]
surial well, good riddance then. [07:45]
waz well, that a true statement :) [07:46]
scav what a tool [07:46]
db throw a raise thank you party [08:02]
FabioP [FabioP!501123ce@host206-35-static.17-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #java-talk [08:28]
scav lol [08:35]
scav sonOfRa: did i ask if you had checked out escape from tarkov? [08:56]
sonOfRa I haven't tried it yet, no [08:56]
scav okay [08:56]
freeone3000 2019 and IPV6 still isn't the default. [09:48]
freeone3000 ping requires a separate tool. nmap requires -6 as an option. it's jank. [09:48]
freeone3000 it should be handled transparently. resolve() should take in a hostname, or an ipv4 address, or an ipv6 address, and return a IpAddrInfo struct which is inherently polymorphic. [09:48]
kamoricks [kamoricks!a7dc952d@Syncleus/dev/freeone3000] has joined #java-talk [10:21]
sonOfRa hm, do I grab untitled goose game or cadence of hyrule? [10:29]
sonOfRa Currently leaning towards the latter, because it looks like more long-term fun than goose game? But then again, HONK [10:29]
waz [waz!~waz@pdpc/supporter/active/waz] has joined #java-talk [10:52]
ron waz: no [11:00]
kamoricks Untitled Goose Game is good for about 4 hours. [11:10]
sonOfRa kamoricks: yeah that's around what I expected [11:10]
kamoricks But. Like. HONK. [11:10]
db 4 hours is plenty, I'd expect 40 minutes [11:10]
sonOfRa kamoricks: but yeah I think I'm gonna get cadence of hyrule for now and get HONK later [11:11]
sonOfRa Maybe when it comes out on steam and is on sale or something [11:11]
kamoricks Cool. I actually like Neccrodancer better than Hyrule? But jmaybe that's just because I played it first. [11:12]
sonOfRa I've definitely played necrodancer a bunch. But the legend of zelda twist on it seems nice [11:12]
gurrkiin sonOfRa: skip both and get Slay The Spire [11:14]
sonOfRa gurrkiin: that happens to have a physical game that I will pick up if I get around to it, but I have a 25? nintendo gift card so I'm going to spend it on something that doesn't come on cartridge [11:15]
kamoricks In freeone3000 games, there's Automachef. [11:19]
gurrkiin Enter the Gungeon [11:19]
kamoricks And VA-11 Hall-A. [11:19]
gurrkiin (i think EtG has a physical too actually..) [11:19]
gurrkiin Dead Cells if you're a masochist [11:20]
kamoricks Dead Cells is quite fun. Very Salt and Santuary vibe. [11:20]
gurrkiin got to like 2 BC and was so burnt out, that game is a pure endurance and skill test [11:21]
gurrkiin Baba Is You ! [11:22]
gurrkiin screw everything else I mentioned (apart from StS) - Baba Is You is a game everyone should play [11:22]
sonOfRa Yup, I have that on PC [11:23]
kamoricks Mike Jones has an album, "Who is Mike Jones?", and it's the top hit on google for Mike Jones. I like this man already. [11:30]
ron did you just assume gender? [11:46]
sonOfRa https://arstechnica.com/staff/2020/01/how-i-broke-my-grocery-stores-app-by-not-buying-enough-stuff :D [12:11]
sonOfRa sonOfRa's title: "I broke Giants handheld scanner system by only buying two things | Ars Technica" [12:11]
sonOfRa quality software engineering [12:11]
sonOfRa tl;dr: Self-checkout at supermarket, you have a random chance to get audited, so people doN#t just steal everything [12:11]
sonOfRa Audit requires 7 items out of the purchase to be scanned. [12:12]
sonOfRa If you bought less than 7 items, the audit cannot be completed [12:12]
surial sonOfRa: sad, but, just a fucking stupid implementation. [12:12]
surial fwiw we have this in all the supermarkets here and, as a security-oriented developer I've reverse engineered the proces and design of it all. [12:12]
surial The # of things it needs the cashier to scan is a percentage of the items you scanned. This is easily broken - I'm sure they get instructions to dig around the bag and pick randomly, but they don't, and pick stuff on top. So put expensive stuff on the bottom and don't scan it and you'll never be caught. As a security minded dev I also, of course, fixed it. [12:13]
sonOfRa I've used this kind of system exactly once, decided to just... fucking go to a cashier against next time [12:13]
surial The system should instead pick a random item (and probably be slightly biased towards mor expensive stuff, even, but not too much - keep that randomness in there). Don't tell the cashier what it is. The cashier's job is now to keep scanning until they hit this item. [12:14]
sonOfRa *every* item needs to be weighed in their system, so that you don't scan the wrong items [12:14]
sonOfRa Things that tend to roll of the scale are annoying, because the scale doesn't have edges to keep rolly stuff from rolling [12:14]
surial Unless you can somehow order your bag such that the cashier will always hit every item you did scan before they hit the item you are trying to 'steal', one day you'll get caught. [12:14]
surial these systems by and large don't weigh. There are 4 different systems here; one store has 3 of the 4. [12:15]
surial There's a system whereby you just shop as normal, go to the cashier line, but it's a 'robot'; you scan it yourself there on the spot, put it down and it geos through a mini airport like scanner, which mostly just weighs it to match weight vs. product. [12:15]
surial There are the systems where you handscanner everything in store. Some stores let you use the supermarket's app and your smartphone for it, even. To pay, you go to an unmanned cash register, and scan your scanner (or, if using the phone, the phone renders a barcode and you scan this), pay, and you get a receipt with a barcode on it that opens the gates. There's 1 person manning ~6 to 10 stations for help, alcohol verification, [12:17]
surial and spot checks. These are _BY FAR_ the most common. They ALL go with the % of total items must be scanned for spot checks (and thus, ALL easily cheatable). [12:17]
surial however, whilst cheatable, these are convenient and way faster than the 'be your own cashier' systems, or just standing in line at a human cashier. Just bleep stuff in store or even make a shopping list at home and just acknowledge off of your list and voila. you can even pay via the phone. [12:18]
sonOfRa I guess % items is fine, but... "always 7 items, no matter what" is just... such a terrible mistake that you really should have tested for [12:18]
surial I also think AH is experimenting with the amazon style 'cameras just see what you take, your phone just pays, done'. That, and picnic here is a delivery-only market, where delivery is free, only limit is that your order must meet or exceed ?25,-, that is all. They ride around in tiny electric carts. I love this place, even if they are doing the whole uber bullshit ('employees? Naaaaah, we have freelancers!') [12:18]
surial sonOfRa: % items is not fine. [12:19]
sonOfRa It's fine for customers. [12:19]
surial sonOfRa: I just put unscanned shit in the bottom of the bag; no cashier is going to dig down there. [12:19]
sonOfRa Which is more important than anything [12:19]
surial yes, quite. [12:19]
sonOfRa The whole point of this (if you discount eliminating jobs) is customer experience [12:19]
surial true, I think the lossage of cheating the system is low. I know how to cheat the system but I don't cheat it, because, well, my momma taught me stealing is bad. [12:19]
surial still, as a dev, I love the challenge: Redesign it so that customer experience is just as great, throughput remains high, but it's way harder to cheat. [12:20]
surial sonOfRa: bwaha, I hadn't read to the end, it actually LINKS to the ahold thing (ahold = ah, and, dutch). [12:21]
sonOfRa heh [12:21]
sonOfRa This stuff is just surreal to me, because I've been working on cash register stuff (as an android app) at work, and that's just the kind of bug that... doesn't happen. [12:22]
sonOfRa The whole user experience (or rather "operator experience") for our tablets is a nightmare, to be honest, because it's hard to satisfy all our customers' needs while still having the *same* app delivered to each of them and still having it be usable for cashiers [12:23]
bobek [bobek!~bobek@unaffiliated/bobek] has joined #java-talk [12:29]
sonOfRa Man, that's some scary shit. Watching a documentary about WWII ordnance in the north and baltic sea, and it's just... 2 million tons in the north sea and 300 thousand tons in the baltic sea estimated, mostly german munitions that the allies dumped in the seas, but also naval battle remnants [12:55]
sonOfRa And there's still a few white phosphorus accidents a year on the german coasts where people pick up washed up white phosphorus because it's almost indistinguishable from amber [12:56]
sonOfRa And once it hits ~25C it sets you on fire while it's in your pants pocket [12:56]
dreamreal sonOfRa: but only once! [01:08]
kamoricks Even if you end up scanning every item, the problem is that you end up with items that weren't scanned, ie, what you're stealing. If it's a random item, there's no way to determine which item stopped the process, or if every item was scanned. [01:32]
kamoricks If the problem is that you don't trust people to not just take things, you'd need an exhaustive enumeration performed by a trusted individual... which eliminates the entire savings behind self-checkout. [01:33]
kamoricks And this discounts the much easier theft method commonly known as *pockets* [01:33]
kamoricks The idea is to have enough enforcement so that people believe that they're audited and that the auditing is effective, rather than to actually provide effective auditing, and allow people to self-police. [01:35]
sonOfRa dreamreal: the chunks are tiny enough that pretty much everyone survives [01:35]
sonOfRa It's just pretty horrible injuries [01:35]
kamoricks sonOfRa Has anybody done it twice, though? [01:35]
waz_ [waz_!~waz@pdpc/supporter/active/waz] has joined #java-talk [01:37]
sonOfRa Oh, probably not, I guess [01:39]
bobek [bobek!~bobek@unaffiliated/bobek] has joined #java-talk [01:48]
acuzio Faux: i hear its really bad in the UK - weather wise [02:30]
Faux I'm in Israel still. [02:31]
acuzio I am in FRA - anyone in the UK here [02:31]
acuzio Faux: hows TLV ?> [02:31]
acuzio I love the place man [02:31]
Faux Learning about how much the people who's job it is to talk like the sound of their own voice. [02:31]
surial sonOfRa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9u41aeItss - you wanna watch that, if you find unexploded ordnance interesting. [02:32]
surial surial's title: "Unexploded Bombs off the British Coast: the SS Richard Montgomery" [02:32]
surial kamoricks: indeed, self-policing is fine, but, _I_ could immediately see the issue. I reiterate my point: Without giving away anything significant in the areas of customer and operator speed, satisfaction, and convience - make it strictly better. [02:32]
surial That's a fun challenge, is all. [02:33]
acuzio hey kamoricks surface pro 6 or 7 ? i need to buy one [02:33]
dreamreal 7 [02:34]
dreamreal acuzio: get the 7 [02:35]
waz [waz!~waz@pdpc/supporter/active/waz] has joined #java-talk [02:41]
acuzio dreamreal: any specific reason ? [02:45]
acuzio other than "its newer" [02:46]
dreamreal acuzio: surface X has power issues, apparently, Surface 7 is apparently the best balance of power and features [02:58]
dreamreal note: we have set of 3s and a 4 [02:58]
dreamreal reallllly want to upgrade my wife's surface to a 7 [02:58]
acuzio I have the 3 and so does She and hers is basically dead for all practical purposes hence [03:28]
acuzio thanks dreamreal [03:28]
kamoricks get the laptop2 [03:30]
kamoricks the rest are kind of not good [03:31]
kamoricks honestly all of them skimp on cooling so get an i5 with moderate memory and no gpu and just sort of deal I guess [03:31]
kamoricks but my favorite laptop is the lenovo p52 so maybe there are use-cases other than mine [03:31]
kamoricks I just don't think that putting an ice pack on the back of a tablet should make it go faster [03:32]
[twisti] does anyone understand this new age of ML and AI and tensorflow ? [03:32]
tang^ kamoricks might [03:32]
kamoricks [twisti]: Hi, I work for Microsoft Research in AI. What's up? [03:32]
kamoricks (we mostly use pytorch but whatever) [03:32]
[twisti] almost 30 years ago, i read a beginners book about neural networks. when i tried to look into this current boom, it didnt really seem much different. whats changed that it took off suddenly in the last few years ? [03:33]
kamoricks They're now computable. [03:33]
[twisti] meaning ? [03:33]
kamoricks 30 years ago, matrix multiplication was slow. you had a 2-layer neural network and it took over a day to train. [03:34]
[twisti] ah, so its actually just processing power that makes todays stuff so viable ? [03:34]
kamoricks today, with hardware acceleration, we can have a 32-layer 768-parameter neural network in the same time. [03:34]
kamoricks yep. [03:34]
[twisti] wow, i thought there was some amazing break through [03:34]
[twisti] thanks [03:34]
kamoricks there's some stuff (like convolutional networks) but in the neural net space it's still 90% emprical findings and we're still tamping LSTMs together [03:35]
kamoricks real cool stuff is in RL where they actually have a strong theoretical backing [03:35]
kamoricks (where the downside is, essentially, it doesn't work, where as NNs do work, except we don't understand them) [03:36]
[twisti] what are adverserial things ? im picturing it as AIs fighting each other to the death, like in person of interest, so please tell me its like that [03:36]
kamoricks you know how you used to be able to crash a modem by typing in ++ATH0? [03:36]
kamoricks it's like that, but for a neural network input. [03:36]
[twisti] lol [03:37]
[twisti] i actually do, i made scripts to kick everyone out of the chat rooms in my old favourite bbs so my friends could get in [03:37]
kamoricks for the 768-parameter vector, not all parameters impact the output equally. for certain networks (honestly, most networks) output is dominated by a few small number of input features, so by manipulation of those features, the output can be decided [03:38]
kamoricks https://towardsdatascience.com/evasion-attacks-on-machine-learning-or-adversarial-examples-12f2283e06a1 has a good example, where adding what looks like random static (but is in fact carefully chosen) can reclassify a panda as a gibbon on standard-trained ResNet [03:38]
kamoricks the ASR one on that page is also super fun [03:39]
[twisti] i was under the impression that adverserial networks were used to make AIs better, but the way you describe it it sounds more like its a hacking tool [03:39]
kamoricks well, kind of. since the network learns from examples, training on correctly-classified adversarial examples hardens it against those adversarial attacks. [03:40]
kamoricks the issue being that it may in fact simply change which inputs are adversarial. [03:40]
[twisti] ah, i see. like vaccinating. [03:40]
kamoricks kind of, it's more. you're presented with only red fruit. then you're handed a tomato, and told to class it as a vegetable, even though it should be a fruit. you'll get tomatos correct from now on. [03:41]
kamoricks but someone hands you a cherry tomato, and it looks like a cherry, and it looks like a tomato, so you class it as a vegetable? if you've not seen it before, it can throw you off. but correct training data can help. [03:41]
kamoricks but since the inputs to the network don't have to exist in reality, they're arrays of floats, there's infinitely many possible inputs, so it's unknown which are adversarial. [03:42]
kamoricks adversarial ~= would not confuse a human, would confuse the network, undetectable by human [03:42]
[twisti] i see [03:42]
kamoricks another approach is by adding random noise to the input using various methods, but that increases the training set and increases training time, and may reduce accuracy since it could learn the *noise* instead of learning the *input* [03:43]
[twisti] so a bit like steganography [03:43]
kamoricks exactly [03:43]
kamoricks there's actually a very strong suspicion that the networks are actually learning *coincidental* stenographic features of the input set instead of what we actually want them to, and the entire field is built on bullshit and giant hash tables [03:44]
[twisti] lol [03:44]
[twisti] does seem to work though [03:45]
kamoricks that's the problem, yes. [03:45]
[twisti] i saw a guy give a cool talk about using tensorflow to take pictures of his cat so he could lock the cat door if it was carrying a rodent [03:45]
kamoricks right. because most of the time we don't care what it actually learns. there's no extraction from latent space (the weights of the network) - we only care about input and output, and treat the middle as a black box. [03:46]
kamoricks if the cat is carrying a crow, and your door misclassifies the crow as a rat... you'd actually count that as a success, not a failure. [03:46]
[twisti] its basically what we do with brains, so that seems to fit [03:46]
[twisti] maybe we ought to aim cognitive brain researches at AIs [03:47]
kamoricks the actual approach diverged in the 80s, there's no actual similarity. [03:47]
kamoricks it's just the name. [03:47]
kamoricks cognitive simulation is actually a really interesting field, though, and can be used for the same tasks - the network of four rat brains performs very well on spatial reasoning tasks for mazes and object detection. [03:48]
[twisti] how ... how did you network four rat brains ? [03:49]
[twisti] do i want to know ? [03:49]
kamoricks exactly the way you think. [03:49]
Faux BLOCKCHAIN?? [03:49]
kamoricks no, by sticking electrodes into the brain and wiring them together. [03:50]
kamoricks https://www.the-scientist.com/daily-news/a-brain-to-brain-interface-for-rats-39712 [03:50]
kamoricks kamoricks's title: "A Brain-to-Brain Interface for Rats | The Scientist Magazine" [03:50]
Faux ...over the blockchain??? [03:50]
kamoricks https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/09/monkey-brain-net-raises-prospect-of-human-brain-to-brain-connection is the weather forecasting rat brain cluster [03:51]
kamoricks The quotes from the PI in that are just fucking gold, btw. [03:51]
tang^ "PI"? [03:53]
[twisti] well im definitely ignoring work in lieu of reading all this shit tomorrow, thank you very much [03:53]
kamoricks tang^: "Principal Investigator", the person quoted as being the lead scientist. [03:54]
tang^ thanks [03:54]
kamoricks There's also a ton of nonsense things we treat as inputs to neural networks that should fall away once we understand them better. For instance. "The meaning of the sentence is the sum of the meaning of the words of the sentence" is a common axiom. [03:55]
tang^ try to apply that to asemic writing [03:57]
kamoricks try to apply that to a sentence with the word 'not' in it. [03:58]
kamoricks like. it's just. clearly untrue. but we use it, because it works well enough. [03:58]
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