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« 2021-05-04


2021-05-06 »

Nick Message Date
selckin what, include the one detail that requires them to think and do work [02:11]
selckin lol get out of here [02:11]
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Faux omg the official k8s api clients is generated (presumably by something like swaggit), and it's garbage, doesn't set the right headers, has ~10 optional arguments, and, in node, uses an old'n'broken http client which doesn't, like, give errors. [02:52]
Faux Optional arguments as in you must run api.listResources(foo, null, null, null, null, null, null, bar, null, null, null, null, baz); [02:52]
selckin at least you can (in theory) improve the code generator and poof useable [02:53]
Faux You'd think that, but it's a googlesque project, so actually no. [02:54]
selckin if the swag in swaggit is swagger/openapi that entire ecosystem is trash and i ran away faster then anything before tho [02:54]
Faux I'm assuming it's swagger/openapi, I didn't check. [02:57]
selckin hah palladium is a real element, thought it was marvel fiction [03:09]
selckin haven't found a decent alternative yet tho :( [03:25]
selckin (if it has to work from javascript) [03:25]
Faux Alternative to whom? [03:25]
selckin swagger stuff [03:26]
selckin i think its why graphql is getting popular now [03:27]
selckin but thats just a disaster to implement server side [03:27]
selckin if you're not facebook scale with a dedicated team to that [03:30]
Faux Oh right. [03:54]
Faux Yes. [03:54]
scav I love porting things from JS/TS. Especially the "we just add new items to the array at the bottom and keep iterating through all of those for as long as we add new items in the loop" [04:10]
scav which i obviously did not pay attention to the first time, so there goes my early lunch [04:11]
puppy_za is that the way to do an infinite loop now [04:44]
scav na, its not infinite, because at some point we run out of nodes in the map [04:46]
Faux I hate structuring those kind of dynamic programming solutions in code. [04:46]
scav same, but i was going to use it to demo ownership in rust (and i think its a fairly okay example) [04:48]
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scav Faux: [05:10]
scav there is such a crazy rust hype in cloud stuff at the moment, its kinda cool [05:11]
Faux yiss [05:11]
Faux Some of my friends have quit their nice sensible jobs because they can get rust jobs. [05:11]
scav i mean im considering the same atm [05:11]
scav but it means a slight decrease in salary [05:12]
scav since norwegian salaries are just... you know [05:12]
db slightly decreased? [05:15]
scav also im a bit worried that my rust and ts code is giving me different numbers when im doing cleanups on our network graph (as in actual fiber cables) [05:17]
sonOfRa Man, if I had ethical concerns about trading my work at a farm, writing software for farmers, and changing it for a big corporation, those sure are gone now! One of the (not the one I worked for, but nearby) asparagus farms near here has gotten over 100 of their 1000 farmhands infected with covid [05:20]
sonOfRa Of course they don't pay for health insurance of migrant workers, that would be too expensive [05:20]
sonOfRa Fuck these people [05:20]
sonOfRa The costs for such insurance, which insurance companies specifically offer, is roughly 40 cents per day per farmhand [05:21]
sonOfRa But the farmers of course lobbied against that becoming mandatory, can't cut into the margins on the asparagus harvest! [05:22]
scav It's almost as if everyone is looking out for themselves [05:23]
sonOfRa And the worst thing is, the local government actually put *all* the remaining (non-infected) workers into "work quarantine". They're all tested negative, but are banned from leaving their homes for anything except harvesting more asparagus for their feudal lord [05:23]
db mmmh asparagus [05:34]
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[twisti] the other day i heard that statistically, everyone in the developed world has 50 slaves working for them [07:03]
[twisti] i guess mine are mostly asparagus farmers and those kids that die mining whatever you need for batteries [07:04]
[twisti] fashion world seems pretty terrible too, but i wear things until they literally fall apart, so i feel morally relaxed in that regard [07:04]
selckin whats the definition of slave [07:04]
[twisti] if you have to ask, its probably a slave [07:06]
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selckin like are people working at foxcon or whatever its called for apple slaves [07:07]
selckin else 50 is a really high number :/ [07:08]
selckin not that i'd disagree they are basicly the same [07:09]
scav Am i learning something new today, or is it still correct that javascript cannot dictate which TLS version to use when connection to a server? [07:15]
scav Imagine if js could dictate anything of importance in the browser, besides sharing what ever people put into localstorage with that random npm package 1000 levels down [07:16]
selckin just what we need a bunch of old javascript requiriing old tls versions [07:17]
Faux ^ this [07:17]
[twisti] selckin: im guessing its primarily 3rd world things like fashion, technology resources like the battery stuff, foodstuffs like avocados and whathaveyou [07:18]
scav i just don't understand how javascript libraries can dictate anything regarding tls if the server refuses older tls version [07:22]
selckin if the tls library supports it, it should just work? [07:23]
Faux I don't understand your usecase. You want your library to mandate that your server is new enough? [07:23]
Faux Just "accidentally" break compilation on browsers from three years ago and you're fine. [07:24]
selckin i know there is some legal stuff going to forbid tls 1.0 & 1.1 soonish, and maybe you want to prevent those from being used if the server supports them [07:24]
scav no usecase here, just curious if anyone has ever heard of that possibility: outdated frontend libs circumventing the min tls version the server is accepting [07:24]
Faux The server? The sever doesn't care who the client is. Fiddling with the browser's settings? Seems unlikely. [07:25]
acuzio morning ladies [08:56]
Faux acuzio. [08:58]
Faux Did you know that computers don't work? [08:58]
acuzio Epilogue from yesterday : "Lady with the Bra" came to know of what happened , reached out to me , thanked me , told me about diversity of opinion,cultural appropriation, male gaze and quite frankly stuff that i didnt quite understand. Meanwhile, I just said "Great, now i need to back to work" and thats it. [08:59]
acuzio Faux: I knew it , yes . [09:00]
acuzio "The lady with the Bra Strap" thinks I struck a blow to HR . ., i was more interested in not getting involved in any of this shit. Its fucking stupid [09:01]
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Diablo-D3 [07:15:14] <scav> Am i learning something new today, or is it still correct that javascript cannot dictate which TLS version to use when connection to a server? [09:07]
Diablo-D3 scav: js in a browser? no [09:07]
Diablo-D3 js in nodejs? Im 99.9% sure the answer is still no, but those nodejs guys are morons [09:08]
Diablo-D3 I dont see the point of it in a browser anyways [09:08]
Diablo-D3 worried about downgrade attacks? wont matter, you're not signing your js either. [09:09]
scav server is basically 1.3 only, i neede dto vent [09:09]
acuzio Meanwhile in some good news , went to the gym , ran 6 KM , with an absolute knock-out of a woman in front of me wearing yoga pants , if I had this sort of motivation on a daily basis I think I could lose weight [09:10]
Diablo-D3 acuzio: the secret to losing weight is purely what you eat, not how much [09:10]
acuzio I like sweets, crisps, ice-cream and fatty curry , do i have a chance ? [09:11]
selckin i hate styling so much, popover/tooptip renders over the trigger, so it flashes in & out view constantly, something with grid/flex layout makes it unable to calculate the proper spot to put it [09:13]
Diablo-D3 acuzio: the curry is mostly okay [09:14]
Diablo-D3 the sweets, crisps, and ice cream are out. [09:14]
acuzio What about 1 whole carrot cake topped with whipped cream [09:15]
acuzio or spicy cashews [09:15]
acuzio I am thinking both are a no [09:15]
Diablo-D3 you get to have that carrot cake once a year, sure. [09:21]
acuzio So i am done for a year then [09:21]
Diablo-D3 basically, eat anything you want, as much as you want, as long as it contains no grains, no refined sugars, no legumes, no seed oils, nothing overly processed [09:23]
acuzio wait, so what are you supposed to eat. Raw Carrots ? [09:24]
Diablo-D3 meat, vegetables, fruit [09:24]
Diablo-D3 I dont know why everyone says HURR HURR RAW CARROTS when I say stuff like that [09:24]
Diablo-D3 almost everything I eat is just normal food. [09:24]
Diablo-D3 and its how I lost weight [09:25]
scav Faux: can i priv you real quick? [09:25]
Diablo-D3 I didnt lose weight by decreasing caloric intake, nor increasing caloric burn [09:25]
Diablo-D3 acuzio: we've somehow developed a common diet that does everything wrong. [09:25]
acuzio scav: you can if you have a dildo of the right quality [09:25]
Diablo-D3 and the 70s just lit that on fire and made it worse. [09:26]
Diablo-D3 like, "salt is bad! dont eat salt!", I dont know why any of the western governments keep saying that shit [09:26]
Diablo-D3 it fails basic science [09:26]
scav acuzio: i have multiple, obviously [09:26]
Diablo-D3 you need so much sodium a day, period, if you don't, you die [09:26]
Faux scav: Always bb. [09:26]
scav this is true, i can even notice it during my workouts if i have lack of salt in my body [09:27]
Diablo-D3 the US gov RDA for sodium is in the danger range [09:27]
scav everything just feels... lacking [09:27]
acuzio Diablo-D3: I am half sarcastic , i have yo-yoed my weight for the last 5 years at least .. as much as 15 kilos .. over the lockout i have just been drinking and eating too much [09:27]
Diablo-D3 you dont want to eat less sodium, you want to eat more potassium [09:27]
Diablo-D3 the western diet is potassium poor. [09:27]
scav im almost as fat as ron, its disgusting [09:29]
Diablo-D3 hah [09:29]
Diablo-D3 but yeah, my diet, among other things, ended up selecting for foods that are higher in potassium [09:29]
scav but i work out 3-5 days a week, row, hike, i dunno wtf is wrong with me [09:29]
scav im fairly strong, i have muscles, i just can't lose the belly fat [09:29]
scav even eating less which took a hit on muscle mass failed to rectify the issue, at all [09:30]
Diablo-D3 but yeah, the western diet says eat foods low in omega 3, high in omega 6, high in oxidized fats, high in unsaturated fats (yes, those are bad), low in sodium, low in potassium, low in k2, but also high in calcium when you dont have the ability to clear it [09:30]
Diablo-D3 scav: yeah, you have to stop eating bad foods, and then prrrrrrrrobably also do intermittent fasting [09:31]
acuzio I tried IF ., i lost weight frighteningly fast ,. but its not sustainable [09:32]
Diablo-D3 it is sustainable [09:32]
Diablo-D3 I mean, thats how most humans were alarmingly recently. [09:32]
Diablo-D3 they ate once a day, maybe twice, depending on their culture [09:33]
Diablo-D3 "three square meals" was invented during the industrial revolution [09:33]
Diablo-D3 its entirely artificial, and is incredibly ignorant of the dietary needs of humans [09:34]
Diablo-D3 you can't lose stubborn fat unless your insulin drops low enough for long enough, and for most people, the fat cells damaged first by improperly regulated insulin levels is your belly fat [09:34]
Diablo-D3 so you'll have to try even harder, but thats your actual leverage to do it [09:35]
scav Diablo-D3: i don't eat bad food, i just eat way to fucking much dinner [09:35]
Diablo-D3 scav: unless you're exceeding 2800 calories daily regularly, nope. [09:35]
scav im fairly sure i am most days [09:36]
Diablo-D3 well, then yeah, you might have an eating disorder then [09:36]
scav days after workouts im so fucking hungry [09:37]
Diablo-D3 yeah, thats "normal" for western diet people [09:37]
scav but im not *fat* fat, i just have a noticeable belly [09:37]
Diablo-D3 their body is trying to restore energy levels by increasing fatty acid mobilization [09:37]
Diablo-D3 except their insulin levels are still being maintained too high [09:37]
Diablo-D3 the energy has to come from somehwere, and your body thinks you're starving, except you're clearly not [09:38]
Diablo-D3 so you input food, instead of opening the fatty acid vault and digging some out [09:38]
acuzio this is going to be interesting, i am reapplying for my Russian Visa and one of the questions is "please enter the dates, and length of stay of other countries in the last 10 years" [09:41]
acuzio Yeah .. thats going to happen [09:42]
Diablo-D3 but yeah, losing my belly fat was the hardest thing, and theres still a bit there [09:45]
Diablo-D3 and its 100% because of a lifetime of eating the western diet, and not understanding how biology works [09:46]
scav i should probably do some cardio as well, i just row before my workouts and thats it pretty much [09:51]
Diablo-D3 cardio is okay, just don't overdo it [09:52]
Diablo-D3 most people do entirely too much cardio, or do it the wrong way [09:52]
[twisti] i would very much like to challenge the claim that 'most people do [...] too much cardio' [09:54]
scav Diablo-D3: 1-3 days of 30 min HIIT a week, thats all i can bother [09:54]
scav i just havent been doing it for years now [09:55]
scav i just lift heavy weights, and call it a day . probably unhealthy in its own wayt [09:55]
acuzio FWIW , Stronglifts and 5*5 has worked best for me in the past when i was a bit healthier than i am now [09:56]
Diablo-D3 scav: 30 minutes total a week? [09:59]
Diablo-D3 acuzio: stuff based around 5x5 are always pretty good [09:59]
acuzio Diablo-D3:i prefer stronglifts personally due to more emphasis on squats which is important or as She says "back that booty up boy" [10:15]
scav Diablo-D3: 30 min x 1-3 days [10:58]
scav haha, i just cannot argue against any of this [10:58]
Diablo-D3 scav: hrm, 30 min hiit once a week is kinda enough if you're blending other shit in too [10:58]
Diablo-D3 scav: #8 [10:59]
Diablo-D3 also #44 [10:59]
scav also #1-50 [11:01]
scav Diablo-D3: yeah, that depends, but i say 1-3 based on how i feel [11:01]
scav the only thing i force myself to do is 3 days of lifting a week, anything more else is just a bonus [11:01]
lawid [lawid!~quassel@2a02:8109:b5c0:5334::1c18] has joined #java-talk [11:13]
Faux Someone's trying to import a list of dates from our system, which we fully control and always have, from a jsonstore into postgres. So far they've found an example of "2021-05-05T01:02:03:000Z" (colon before the millis), and a date representing midnight on a day that doesn't exist (31st June). [11:37]
freeone3000 scav: TLS negotiation is two-way. The server can simply deny all clients older than TLS 1.3. [11:42]
Diablo-D3 yup [11:42]
Diablo-D3 but the problem is mitm attacks [11:42]
Diablo-D3 china has been doing them for awhile [11:42]
Diablo-D3 theres no way to sign your js, and even if you did, china probably knows a way to tamper with that [11:43]
Diablo-D3 so the purpose of a js api to do things is idiotic [11:43]
scav freeone3000: yes, that was always my assumption, i could not wrap my head around "we need to update our js lib running in the browser to make it safe to use service X again" [11:43]
Diablo-D3 scav: sure it wasnt some weird cve? [11:43]
Diablo-D3 that had nothing to do with tls? [11:43]
Faux Maybe it implements tls in code! [11:44]
Diablo-D3 AAAAHHHHHHHH [11:44]
Faux By compiling openssl 1.0 to wasm. [11:44]
scav auth0 is deprecating legacy tls [11:44]
Diablo-D3 I still fail to see how this involves js [11:44]
Faux It is about time. [11:45]
scav i mean, me too, like i said before: i needed to make sure i was not a complete retard - i doubt myself sometimes [11:45]
scav Faux: ain't nobody got time for propper date formats [11:46]
DoofusCanadensis Microsoft's servers are denying old TLS clients [12:07]
Faux Apparently my nginx setup does 1.3, I was worried for a bit there. No spdy though. [12:08]
Diablo-D3 http 3.0 isnt out yet. [12:09]
ron I wish I had a completely different office setup. Like, just a bean bag or something. can't figure out exactly what though. [12:32]
ron I only use the laptop, no external devices, and I don't like sitting at a desk [12:33]
acuzio wait , what ? [12:33]
acuzio how the fuck are you able to get any work done ? [12:33]
ron by working? [12:34]
acuzio doesnt sound right at all [12:36]
ron what doesn't? [12:37]
acuzio nothing does [12:48]
ron ok [12:50]
freeone3000 DoofusCanadensis: As is RIGHT and PROPER [12:54]
freeone3000 "My most common question was, if we had another great quarter, why doesn't the stock keep going up?" Whoo boy. [01:11]
Diablo-D3 past performance does not guarantee future results [01:13]
ron freeone3000: "because Musk did not tweet about us" [01:14]
acuzio ^^ this is the correct answer [01:14]
DoofusCanadensis freeone3000: I know, RIGHT? [01:15]
DoofusCanadensis what it did, though, was point out that our servers are out of date and relying on old TLS protocols [01:15]
acuzio Earliest appointment for Visa to Russia : Feb 15 2022. [01:23]
acuzio Computer says no i think [01:23]
ricky_clarkson Maybe you need to apply from a more Russia-friendly country. [01:35]
freeone3000 I just looked up the visa procedures for russia and... dang, it's not worth it. [01:40]
acuzio I travel to Moscow quite frequently - or rather i did [01:41]
acuzio I think in my group of people i am one of the few who has Russian _and_ Chinese "long" term visas, which is 12 months multi-entry [01:42]
acuzio Of course i have a separate passport for the visas from "undesirable" countries [01:43]
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freeone3000 americans only get the chinese long visa. [01:48]
ron you're so fancy acuzio [02:01]
acuzio thanks ron [02:01]
acuzio currently i am fucking neck deep trying to get fucking dimmer switches that i want [02:01]
acuzio so no i dont think I am fancy [02:01]
ron it's dimmer switches [02:03]
ron you buy them [02:03]
ron you get them [02:03]
ron done [02:03]
ron next [02:03]
ron Another satisfied customer. Next! [02:03]
acuzio the ones i wanted are not available [02:03]
ron then the whole house is ruined [02:03]
ron better start over [02:03]
acuzio I have spent 700 quid on a particular set that i wanted ., now i have to put all of them out and start with a new set because the ones i wanted will not be in stock before August and i have to fucking finish the house. Without sockets the final coat of paint cannot be done [02:04]
ron if only you could use temporary cheap ass switches instead and wait until august [02:05]
ron that's some real problems there [02:05]
acuzio no that doesnt work . [02:06]
acuzio you didnt hear me [02:06]
ron oh I did [02:06]
acuzio The "final" coat of paint only goes in "after" the sockets are in [02:06]
scav aren't these things standardised? [02:07]
acuzio I dont have the luxury of putting one in then going back and putting another set in [02:07]
ron oh, so once you put on the coat you can never ever ever replace the sockets [02:07]
scav in norway the sockets are always the same, its just the cover that changes [02:07]
ron but what happens if you want to paint, scav [02:08]
scav you remove the cover and paint? [02:09]
ron but what if it's a painted cover?! [02:10]
freeone3000 we don't paint our lightswitches here [02:10]
ron but acuzio isn't 'here' is he [02:11]
acuzio a) sockets have different backplates - depths , if you will , some require more and some less , the standard is 25mm b) yes, you can remove the sockets and paint but you dont want to do that on a new house cause well its new. c) i am putting screwless sockets and switches , its a little bit more fiddly to do that without damaging the paints d) (sidebar) i have philips LED bulbs with dimmer [02:14]
acuzio switches on them, its already hard enough to get the right ones to work cause of wattage issues , cheap ass ones for the most part fucking dont work [02:14]
acuzio for d) ask Faux as well [02:15]
ron you don't need them to work, you need them to be a placeholder. it's fucking august 2021, not august 3021. [02:15]
ron wait [02:15]
ron why do I care [02:15]
acuzio I am going into the house at the end of May ., what do you mean placeholder [02:16]
ron yes, you have the worst problem in the world and I feel for you. I hope you manage to work through it ? [02:16]
acuzio I do have a 700 pound problem though - i have spent 700 quid and now i cant return them _and_ i have to restart the search so no its not the end of the world its however most defnly not convenient [02:17]
ricky_clarkson Maybe live with temporary lighting for a bit. [02:17]
ron ricky_clarkson: you're being absurd [02:18]
ricky_clarkson That's not even that hard in the UK in the summer, given that the sun is only really gone for a few hours each night. [02:18]
acuzio ricky_clarkson: Temporary lighting aka mismatched sockets and switches in a new house ., i could do that i guess [02:18]
ricky_clarkson I've been for 'nights' out where I didn't even see it go dark as it was still light on the way out and I was coming back past sunrise the next morning [02:19]
ricky_clarkson Temporary lights such as portable lanterns, whatever works. [02:19]
ron candles! [02:19]
acuzio The problem is the workers will be away in May. They are _not_ coming back in August [02:19]
acuzio workers aka contractors [02:20]
ron it's.... installing sockets, not building a house [02:20]
freeone3000 I can do a switch. [02:21]
acuzio its installing a socket , switch _and_ making sure the paint is not getting fucked with these slimline, flushed ones .. its hard. I have seen them [02:21]
ron yes, I get it's not your average switch, but you're getting overly worked up. [02:22]
ricky_clarkson That sounds like a more serious problem, sure. Especially at 240V [02:22]
acuzio Its May first week - i dont have electricity , contractors leave inside of the house at end of may [02:23]
freeone3000 if you don't have electricity, installing stuff gets way easier [02:28]
acuzio no wires are in... its live.. its not in a useable stgate [02:29]
acuzio state even [02:30]
acuzio So if you wire the sockets in .,, they will work [02:30]
freeone3000 so I gotta ask [02:31]
freeone3000 are these french sockets? [02:31]
acuzio whats a french socket ? [02:31]
freeone3000 did you buy your electrical sockets from france? [02:31]
acuzio no [02:32]
freeone3000 dang, we can't blame brexit [02:32]
acuzio i was quite careful to try and source stuff from the UK - .. of course this country makes fuck all , so that got scuppered. [02:33]
acuzio I made the mistake of going for Philips bulbs that are made in NL and next shipment for those are fucking end of Jul as well so thats gone for a toss as well [02:35]
acuzio If you call the suppliers why stuff is not available they look at you like you were born yesterday ; "We are in a pandemic sir, our supplies from Europe are not coming due to Brexit" [02:41]
acuzio even standard stuff like this is gone [02:45]
acuzio I am not looking for something thats way _out_ there.. things are just not there [02:46]
ron I feel your pain acuzio [03:13]
Diablo-D3 at this point [03:13]
Diablo-D3 fly to the mainland [03:13]
Diablo-D3 buy one [03:13]
Diablo-D3 and fly back [03:13]
[twisti] youd prob get paid by the airlines [03:14]
sonOfRa Diablo-D3: there will be a dude with a ridiculous fro telling you "Mainland's closed due to plague" [03:14]
whaley [03:14]
whaley whaley's title: "Effin' Birds on Twitter: """ [03:14]
sonOfRa wise bird [03:15]
ron whaley: nearly replied to your ttweet but didn't [03:16]
whaley ron: you should [03:16]
whaley I am literally begging to shamed [03:16]
ron but idc [03:16]
whaley ron: :( [03:16]
sonOfRa okay [03:16]
ron thatt was lame sonOfRa [03:17]
sonOfRa yes that's me [03:17]
sonOfRa I'm lame [03:17]
ron yes [03:17]
whaley sonOfRa++ [03:17]
whaley sonofra has a karma level of 231, whaley [03:17]
ron whaley: you're twice my height and i sstill weigh more than you [03:17]
ron sonOfRa: that was even llamer [03:18]
sonOfRa was it, though [03:18]
ron yes [03:18]
sonOfRa but was it *really* [03:19]
sonOfRa (yes) [03:19]
ron i wasn't evdn part of the conversation so yes [03:19]
sonOfRa You were in here! This is what the inventors of the internet wanted the internet to be! The end to end nature! [03:21]
sonOfRa I'm bored. [03:21]
ron go to the gym [03:21]
sonOfRa Gym's closed due to plague [03:21]
whaley ron: how much do you weigh? [03:23]
sonOfRa He weighs 1 ron [03:23]
sonOfRa aka he's an absolute unit [03:23]
whaley is that metric or imperial? [03:23]
sonOfRa I'll stop now [03:23]
tang^ [tang^!~tang^@2604:3d09:47c:f970:a57e:b472:df2c:8c53] has joined #java-talk [03:23]
ron whaley: too much [03:24]
whaley ok, fine, I'll go first. I'm oscillating between 235-240 right now [03:25]
whaley so, I doubt you weigh more than that [03:26]
ron whaley: I'm actually not far :-/ [03:28]
ricky_clarkson 209 [03:32]
acuzio ron: well , thanks , but really thats not pain this is [03:42]
ron acuzio: tldr [03:50]
acuzio what the headline says ., Tennessee republican thinks Blacks are 3/5th of a human and he gets applauded for making that statement [03:53]
ron last week I had a long conversation with a colleague about how americans and some western european countries are privileged when it comes to DEI, and how by having a dedicated channel for the topic where the majority of the employees do not reside in those countries, is actually causing the opposite effect. and that some of the topics that are being discussed are so dumb and irrelevant that it ends up alienating people in the company even more. [03:55]
acuzio whats DEI ? [03:56]
ron and I gave him some concrete examples, not just the above claims. he was actually very open to my points because they showed him a very different perspective of things [03:56]
ron igb [03:56]
ron acuzio, Is Google broken? [03:56]
ron diversity, equity and inclsion [03:56]
acuzio oh we call it D&I [03:57]
acuzio TIL its DEI [03:57]
ron fair [03:57]
ron that's not to say there are no issues and that they should not be discussed [03:57]
acuzio Sorru , what was your point ? [03:58]
ron that americans are butthurt, acuzio [03:58]
ron this was a result of the whatever basecamp crap that was going on last week [03:58]
ron and yes acuzio, this is very different than what you just shared.. [03:59]
freeone3000 Then it sounds like your D&I meetings aren't actually listening to the people in the meeting? [04:00]
ron what meetings? it's a channel. [04:00]
freeone3000 eugh. asynchronous communication is shit for empathy. [04:00]
ron very much so [04:00]
acuzio <---------- goes to search for the Basecamp crap [04:01]
acuzio I dont know what it was [04:01]
acuzio or is [04:01]
ron but I did join one DEI meeting and took the risk of expressing myself. I was the only or almost only one who was not American/Western European on the call [04:01]
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acuzio what happened ? [04:01]
ron and I was considering whether to voice my opinion, but eventually I did [04:01]
ron and that was "fun". [04:02]
ron acuzio: igb ffs [04:02]
ron just search for 'basecamp news' it's not that hard [04:02]
freeone3000 ...illinois gaming board? integrated genome browser? indiana girls' basketball? [04:02]
acuzio i am searching for it ron [04:02]
ron igb [04:03]
ron freeone3000, Is Google broken? [04:03]
ron ffs [04:03]
acuzio where do you think i am going to search for the basecamp "thing" - ... bing? [04:03]
ron you are so disconnected acuzio , it's painful [04:04]
freeone3000 I mean, if you did, you'd get a nifty little infobox [04:04]
freeone3000 (and 1/250th of a $5 store credit, if you're in the states) [04:04]
freeone3000 ron: It didn't turn out well? [04:05]
ron freeone3000: what didn't/ [04:05]
sonOfRa acuzio: basically some company said "talking about politics in the workplace is now banned" [04:05]
freeone3000 ron: Sharing your perspective in the D&I meeting. [04:05]
sonOfRa And a bunch of other things [04:05]
freeone3000 then took the monumnetally stupid step of "If you don't like it, you can leave, we'll buy back your [not-quite-stock] options." [04:06]
ron freeone3000: let's just say I made the americans very uncomfortable and one of them said 'if it's a nice thing to do why shouldn't we' exactly after I explained why we shouldn't. [04:06]
freeone3000 ah. that'll happen when you actually have to encounter an out-group perspective. [04:06]
sonOfRa And then a good bit of their staff quit, some probably because that's a lot of money and some probably because that's not the kind of company they want to work at, or both [04:06]
scav i prefer to talk religion at work [04:07]
ron sonOfRa: I'd actually embrace a company that says no politics. [04:07]
scav and im actually with ron on this one [04:07]
ron that's because you're not american/western european [04:07]
scav unless you have a conversation with close friends at work, who you would have been hitting up outside of work as well, nobody should give a shit [04:07]
sonOfRa acuzio: but the real kicker is, one of the C-suite guys is very very loudly "oh god I hate capitalism so much" on twitter [04:08]
ron that ^ [04:08]
ron sonOfRa: but that's different. that's not 'at work'. [04:08]
freeone3000 didn't he write a book? about how embracing external cultural forces at work produces a better result? [04:08]
sonOfRa yeah [04:08]
ron I don't think politics should be banned at a workplace, but I also don't think it should be the focus of things. [04:09]
acuzio Are these the Ruby guys who were hailed as some sort of new-age gurus ? DHH and that lot ? [04:10]
sonOfRa Oh, I agree [04:10]
sonOfRa acuzio: yes [04:10]
freeone3000 scav: this is politics in the "should we keep a list of the client's names who we think are dumb?" and "are promotions being primarily given out to white people?" sense. [04:10]
freeone3000 acuzio: Yes, them. [04:10]
acuzio facepalms [04:11]
acuzio that lot is just so much drama its fucking insane [04:11]
ron anyway, when the discussion started on that in the DEI channel and there was only one person who was vocal to the other side (not me), that made me want to quit the channel even though I can't do that, never wanted to join it, but autojoined through an invite and I forever remind that perrson that I kinda hate him for it. [04:11]
ron acuzio: ya think [04:12]
ron acuzio: now imagine the ceo wrote the same thing while having his bra strip visible [04:12]
ron ? [04:12]
acuzio the bra strip thing was just some idiot flunkie being too zealous and he got put back in his place . [04:13]
scav uhm, ron? what is a DEI channel? [04:13]
sonOfRa [21:56:56] <ron> diversity, equity and inclsion [04:13]
ron ^ [04:13]
ron on slack [04:13]
Faux As part of our DEI efforts today we had a guy give a talk on what ramadan was and why we should be nice to him. [04:13]
ricky_clarkson Which of the three are you, ron? [04:13]
ron acuzio: I was making a joke. relax. [04:14]
acuzio ron:tis ok [04:14]
scav that almost sounds made up to me [04:14]
ron ricky_clarkson: oh, I'm just the angry white male who's responsible for all that's wrong. [04:14]
sonOfRa scav: that would be because you don't work for an american company [04:14]
ron scav: welcome to american companies [04:14]
scav do people in america spend must of their time being butthurt or afraid of lawsuits? [04:14]
scav s/must/most [04:14]
ricky_clarkson scav: Complete this phrase: "health and.." [04:14]
acuzio Faux: I hate that shit [04:15]
scav god [04:15]
freeone3000 human services! [04:15]
ron sonOfRa: yes [04:15]
ron Faux: I think cultural exchange is nice, seriously. as long as it's not imposed. [04:15]
scav in our firm, we just behave like normal, decent human beings - not really that hard is it? [04:15]
ron scav: that's because you llive in an all-whitte country [04:16]
scav i do? [04:16]
Faux Also helps if you get top-rate speakers to do it. The background here is our INTERNAL - CONFIDENTIAL background but I cropped out the confidential labels so it's okay to share. [04:16]
freeone3000 scav: It is worried that 'normal' is insufficiently 'decent' to meet the objective-quality requirements. [04:16]
ricky_clarkson scav: Most Brits would go "health and safety" immediately and you probably have similar things in your country. It doesn't mean we spend all day worrying about falling ladders, or that the Americans spend all day dodging subpoena-carrying lawyers. [04:16]
sonOfRa Faux: hahahaha [04:16]
ron Faux: dafaq [04:17]
scav ricky_clarkson: i mean we have labour laws as well, both mental and physical - but we kinda stop at that. most of the time people self regulate [04:17]
freeone3000 Faux: Top-quality slides. [04:17]
Faux I learned something. [04:17]
scav haha Faux [04:17]
ricky_clarkson Faux: I didn't know The Office was back. [04:18]
freeone3000 scav: This isn't enforced by management or produces any sort of actionable items, in most cases. [04:18]
scav what isn't? [04:18]
freeone3000 scav: DIB initiatives. [04:18]
Faux DIBs on the bra strap. [04:18]
scav the fuck is a DIB? [04:18]
freeone3000 Diversity, Inclusion, and Belonging. We've decided to de-emphasize equity, at the request of the CEO. [04:18]
Faux Diversity - Inclusivity - Boobs. [04:18]
scav holy shit. remind me never to leave norway [04:19]
ricky_clarkson I think we're a small edit away from talking about political correctness, so let's go all the way there.. [04:19]
ricky_clarkson Git now asks if you want master or main as the default, and I've seen allowlist instead of whitelist in a lot of places.. [04:19]
DoofusCanadensis permitlist has been floated, too [04:20]
ricky_clarkson Genuinely curious here, should/does that affect 'remastering' a song, or 'master data' in supply chain/ERP terminology? [04:20]
freeone3000 VSTS and Github default to main. Despite me saying, out loud, to at *least* three people, that the thing all branches come from is the *trunk* [04:20]
DoofusCanadensis SVN got that one right, at least [04:20]
ricky_clarkson trunk would be good [04:20]
[twisti] they dont want the stink and shame associated SVN [04:20]
ron k startedd meetingg bye [04:21]
acuzio That fucking discussion got shutdown _very_ quickly at our place by people going ... this is BS [04:21]
scav i have changes all the repos i control at work to main, took me five minutes and hopefully made some people angry [04:21]
DoofusCanadensis Given how we treat our Git repos like they were SVN, it might be feasible for us to revert back [04:21]
ricky_clarkson Blacklist/whitelist does have some history behind it, it's less innocent than manhole [04:21]
DoofusCanadensis snrk no it wouldn't [04:21]
freeone3000 I'm usually against this type of performative renaming. Nothing about power structures in society or how they are enforced was changed by changing my branch name from master to main. [04:22]
ricky_clarkson master too, just that I don't know if we should change the places where we use master with no slave concept [04:22]
scav i am primarily offended by git using terms like head, push and pull,. because it turns me on [04:22]
ricky_clarkson e.g., master/slave servers, go ahead and change that, but master data, no idea [04:22]
scav primary data [04:23]
acuzio scav: I am with you [04:23]
sonOfRa In any case, people complaining about words changing and saying "but we can't change the meaning of words like that" are filthy prescriptivists, and no prescriptivist is a friend of mine [04:23]
scav acuzio: ofc you are :D [04:23]
acuzio -) [04:23]
scav ah, sonOfRa with another allow and accept perspective [04:23]
Faux HELLO. I'M THE MOON. [04:23]
scav the moon is white though, fuck you Faux [04:24]
scav you learnt nothing [04:24]
sonOfRa It's a big discussion right now in some circles in Germany, a bunch of people complaining about people moving away from the generic masculine form and using other forms of generic address [04:25]
sonOfRa And how it's supposedly unreadable and blah and destroying our language blah blah blah [04:25]
acuzio let me guess , old white men ? [04:26]
freeone3000 we're having this problem in french too! [04:26]
scav there are viable arguments on both sides [04:26]
sonOfRa acuzio: of course [04:26]
acuzio scav: what are the viable arguments on _not_ changing it ? [04:26]
freeone3000 french is particularly difficult, because the masculine form is like "employe" and the feminine form is like "employee" and the bigender form is like "employ(e)e" and there's no possible neuter [04:27]
sonOfRa Some are even suggesting introducing legislation to make it illegal for official documents to use any of the inclusives forms [04:27]
ricky_clarkson Some Spanish uses the @ sign to 'be more inclusive', e.g., latin@s to mean latinas and latinos, technically redundant as latinos is the term for a mix of latinas and latinos [04:27]
scav you mean as a counter to "people get hurt or cannot identify with the current state of languages"? [04:27]
ricky_clarkson That's not mainstream, more of a gimmick, but it happens. [04:27]
freeone3000 all of our stuff uses the bigender form now? but like, so do help wanted signs, so it's not a huge step. [04:28]
scav what i want to know is this: does the *majority* of the people are supposedly caring for or protecting by doing these things actually want or need them, or is a vocal minority? [04:29]
sonOfRa freeone3000: in german, you have "Mitarbeiter" and "Mitarbeiterin". One inclusive form is with spelling "MitarbeiterIn", and have a small glottal stop in the pronounciation (other than "mitarbeiterin" which wouldn't have a glottal stop in pronounciation) [04:29]
ricky_clarkson scav: The majority were not negatively affected by actual slavery, but abolishing it has been positive. ;) [04:29]
sonOfRa So you'd differentiate both the spelling and the pronounciation [04:29]
acuzio majority of people did not want woman suffrage scav thats a bad argument [04:29]
scav like i dont really give a shit, i use "their" a lot, but i will never call anyone xer or what ever, but still [04:29]
freeone3000 sonOfRa: weith like, an "l"? [04:29]
sonOfRa capital I [04:30]
scav acuzio: did most woman not want them? or most men? [04:30]
freeone3000 sonOfRa: huh. [04:30]
acuzio both scav [04:30]
scav ricky_clarkson: yes, and im sure *all* slaves wanted to abolish slavery, my point here is: do all the "slaves" feel this way? [04:30]
sonOfRa so you'd have a small noticeable pause at "mitarbeiter-in" rather than "mitarbeiterin" [04:30]
ricky_clarkson There were slaves who lorded it over other slaves, who would probably have preferred to continue being a slave rather than starting fresh with $0 [04:31]
sonOfRa It's a nice concept, it's barely a change, but of course, heavy opposition [04:31]
ricky_clarkson I'm trying to say you don't need to worry about majority/minority, but what's right. Not every good decision is popular. [04:31]
acuzio this ^^ [04:32]
scav ricky_clarkson: fair point [04:32]
freeone3000 I dunno. I think it makes sense in English, which uses gender only for things that refer to people, and has agender forms of words, or we can invent them fairly easily. For languages with grammatical gender, it gets *hard*. [04:32]
sonOfRa yup. [04:33]
sonOfRa Hell, we've been through this 16 years ago [04:33]
sonOfRa Some people went really hard against calling Angela Merkel "Frau Bundeskanzlerin" rather than "Frau Bundeskanzler" [04:33]
sonOfRa You can't just make up a female word for chancellor! It's not allowed! [04:33]
scav though, do we simply just keep making up pronouns for as long as people have new ideas, and expect people to follow them? or is *one* neutral term enough (e.g. their) ridding us from all of this (which is what i would prefer)? [04:33]
sonOfRa And then... we just did it anyways. [04:33]
freeone3000 scav: screw it, pronouns are whatever. [04:34]
sonOfRa (those same people also get really angry if you now suggest that we should refer to a new, possible male chancellor as "Herr Bundeskanzlerin") [04:34]
scav in norway we are gradually removing naming that is feminine or masculine, but it takes time - primarily because you want to come up with names that are good and that makes sense [04:35]
acuzio I am more like , I dont give a fuck what you call the other person as long as the other person is happy its fine [04:35]
scav e.g. sherif is "lensmann" here, and "mann" is "man" in norwegian, and just going "lens" makes noe sense at all, as "lens" means to piss [04:36]
freeone3000 lenspersonne! [04:36]
scav i hate it :D [04:36]
sonOfRa scav: we have a few like that in German as well. [04:37]
sonOfRa Most notably "Krankenschwester" which is a nurse, who we call "sisters", because well, nurses used to be nuns, so, sisters [04:37]
sonOfRa We've moved that to "Krankenpfleger/Krankenpflegerin" years ago, which is "sick carer", rather than "sick sister" in the direct translation [04:37]
scav same as here, directly translated, but its been like that for years [04:38]
ricky_clarkson sonOfRa: Regarding Merkel, they kind of did the same for President Cristina Kirchner in Argentina - there's only 'presidente' but she would use 'presidenta' at times [04:40]
ricky_clarkson scav: So a sheriff is literally a pissman? [04:41]
freeone3000 gotta round up the drunks for something [04:41]
scav ricky_clarkson: no, not literally, since "lens" also means emptying a boat for spill water (does that make any sense)? [04:41]
freeone3000 ("bail" in english) [04:42]
scav but if they did call them that, im fairly sure most people would go "haha pissman!" [04:42]
freeone3000 (*huh*, if we take definition (2)....) [04:42]
scav not getting nay younger here, freeone3000 [04:43]
ricky_clarkson You could say pissman in English then translate to lensmann if somebody asks [04:43]
freeone3000 scav: Okay, so 'lens' means to piss and to bail (out a boat). Releasing someone from jail in exchange for bond is also called bail. So they're bail-men, which is an old english word which became "bail-bondsman" in modern english [04:44]
freeone3000 scav: but I don't know if 'lens' also has this second meaning in norwegian. [04:44]
sonOfRa Languages are so fucking fascinating. [04:45]
scav not even sure we have bail here, so i don't think so [04:45]
ricky_clarkson whistle (noun) in Spanish is the same word as a dick (pito). I wouldn't want to be a referee. [04:46]
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scav at least not for getting released from jail [04:46]
freeone3000 the insults write themselves! [04:46]
scav i need to derail this chat a bit, because this collection is just fucking cool [04:47]
ricky_clarkson scav: Nice. I generated sad song lyrics about computers from there, the bridge made me cry /s "If I only was a computer. People could connect" [04:53]
ricky_clarkson [04:54]
ricky_clarkson ricky_clarkson's title: "Artificial Intelligence Songwriter ? These Lyrics Do Not Exist" [04:54]
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scav haha [05:07]
scav [05:08]
ricky_clarkson you need to putin other keyword [05:11]
DoofusCanadensis sweet, maven is now forcibly blocking http repositories [05:34]
DoofusCanadensis not so sweet, I need to add a cert to our internal repository [05:35]
DoofusCanadensis (I'm already busy people, stop doing the right thing for a minute) [05:35]
DoofusCanadensis sweet. I already had a cert [05:50]
DoofusCanadensis not so sweet. it expired before I deployed it [05:50]
scav ricky_clarkson: hahaha [06:00]
sonOfRa Oh no [06:42]
sonOfRa Apparently some people have come up with a cryptocurrency to use disk space rather than processing power [06:42]
sonOfRa Why do these people hate the fact that anyone could ever buy computing devices at a reasonable price ever again? [06:43]
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db yaay switching teams [09:34]
db I mean. it was clear that there would be a team split because the current project was "over"/on hold but - I managed to get assigned to a team which doesn't have that guy in it. [09:36]
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freeone3000 Sonofra: we have run out of commons to privitize, so now we must monetize our attention, our hobbies, our free time, all of our possessions. [10:14]
freeone3000 Else the infinite exponential growth might slow, and this is disastrous. [10:14]
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