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« 2019-07-17


2019-07-19 »

Nick Message Date
db just imagine the half-assery and incompetence which is so widespread in our profession would be similarly prevalent in construction. people would die every day. [12:04]
Devastator very true [12:09]
Devastator what is your opinion about this article? is this guy correct or not? [12:24]
Devastator Devastator's title: "Stop using JWT for sessions - joepie91's Ramblings" [12:24]
dodobrain ah joepie of #node.js fame [12:27]
db Devastator: I think he has a point [12:36]
db or more than one [12:37]
db I didn't ever really get into the topic as I haven't been involved with web frontends a lot [12:38]
Devastator db giving english is not my first language, does he mean it is ok to use JWT as auth algo, but not to manage sessions?! [12:38]
db I think that might be the gist of it [12:38]
selckin there is no benefit in doing it, only extra risks [12:38]
selckin is his point from quickly glossing over it [12:38]
Devastator got it [12:38]
dodobrain just read the `So... what is JWT good for, then?` section right at the end [12:39]
Devastator well, I never thought about using auth token to manage sessions, seems risky just by saying it.. [12:39]
dodobrain i think the majority of people using jwt tend to use it similar to a session cookie [12:41]
Devastator as a non developer, it sounds hackish [12:43]
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KekSi 'morning [02:42]
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selckin [03:15]
selckin selckin's title: "Ex-Microsoft dev used test account to swipe $10m in tech giant's own store credits, live life of luxury, Feds allege The Register" [03:15]
puppy_za how brazen [03:19]
Faux live life of luxury, buy all the MtG cards, .. [03:20]
selckin looks at freeone3000 [03:20]
dodobrain oh i was waiting for KekSi and puppy_za to show up [03:26]
dodobrain it must mean its almost time to piss off home [03:26]
puppy_za oh [03:26]
KekSi heh [03:27]
puppy_za dodobrain: you should go home on your own time :p [03:27]
KekSi well i've been at work since 7:30 (it's almost 9:30 now) [03:27]
puppy_za I am applying to work flexi hour soon [03:27]
selckin can't explain it, but the new desktop twitter ui just "bugs/irks" me on some strange level [03:28]
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dodobrain and now it is truly time to go home [03:38]
dodobrain goodnight [03:38]
KekSi nn [03:39]
acuzio morning ladies [03:45]
acuzio school hols from next week , the kid comes in the morning and lets me know . [03:45]
Faux Yeah. Hope the wife makes it. [03:46]
Faux Sports Day today. [03:47]
acuzio your wife?? [03:47]
acuzio Faux: You have kids? [03:47]
Faux Well, technically my fiancee for a few more weeks. [03:47]
Faux No, acuzio. [03:47]
acuzio ?? [03:47]
Faux She teaches. [03:48]
acuzio oh.... [03:48]
acuzio yeah that makes more sense [03:48]
acuzio btw, Faux is it done? [03:49]
acuzio Are we out yet? [03:49]
acuzio Did you hear Bo Jo now talking about "Proroguing Parliament" [03:49]
Faux Libdem leadership election deadline on Monday! [03:49]
acuzio Who cares [03:50]
acuzio "Send Her Back" [03:50]
acuzio He is going to win [03:50]
acuzio I have put in another 1000USD on him [03:50]
Faux Support request: hi uh yea we're running a centos machine from 1942 and it cant connect to your ssl setup please fix [03:51]
acuzio I always say the same answer in that case : "noiceeeeeeeeeee" [03:51]
Faux I'm going for some That's Funny, It Works On Our Test Setup. [03:53]
sonOfRa morning [04:02]
sonOfRa Nice [04:04]
sonOfRa Germany is passing a measles vaccine law. [04:04]
KekSi fucking finally [04:04]
sonOfRa Anyone who attends or works in any public institution (schools, daycares, asylum seeker homes, nursery homes) will have to get vaccinated [04:04]
sonOfRa In addition, all employees at hospitals and doctor's practices have to get vaccinated [04:05]
acuzio sonOfRa: :+1 [04:05]
Faux "attends", as in, all kids? [04:06]
sonOfRa yes [04:06]
Faux \o/ [04:06]
acuzio Fucking Finally [04:06]
Faux Imagine if we had a government. [04:07]
acuzio woooow... slow down there [04:08]
Faux Imagine if the US had a government? [04:08]
acuzio We have the greatest Govt of all time [04:11]
acuzio have you not heard ? [04:11]
Faux Actually no. [04:12]
sonOfRa oh god they changed the twitter layout on desktop to look like it's mobile [04:13]
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[twisti] who the fuck calls a programming/dev tool "fork" [04:17]
[twisti] thats the most ungoogleable thing ever [04:17]
selckin RUST GO FORK [04:18]
[twisti] lets start some libraries and call them 'return', 'parameter' and 'function' [04:18]
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selckin i'm sure node people already did [04:18]
[twisti] at least rust and go are languages and have a chance of being the first result you actually want [04:18]
[twisti] geez, yeah, fuck node [04:18]
sonOfRa :D [04:19]
sonOfRa return and parameter also exist [04:19]
Faux We have python code which tries to do `def foo(): return 6` `foo.a = 7` which, while legal, makes all of the typecheckers furious; maybe a function module is the answer! [04:20]
selckin how dare you betray rust like that [04:20]
acuzio I have made a fucking mistake by looking at The Donald's old video tapes [04:21]
Faux sex tapes [04:21]
Faux Didn't know you were into showers of the golden kind, acuzio. [04:21]
acuzio Well he is shown mucking about with Epstein and some women and being sexist to some extent. I think what most folks dont get is that this is quite literally playing into the Donald's myth. He wants to be seen as the mover and shaker who has an eye on the ladies. [04:23]
sonOfRa no kinkshaming, Faux! [04:23]
acuzio I dont think NBC, CBS or the woke kids who run MSNBC get that - this is quite literally the reason why The Donald won. His base thinks him being sexist or racist as just telling it like it is. [04:24]
acuzio Its men being men , that sort of thing. [04:24]
Faux Execute them all. [04:25]
acuzio I got into an unwanted argument with a millenial kid from the office who said "this is awful" [04:25]
sonOfRa how old was said kid [04:26]
acuzio I am like "No, its not fucking awful , its exactly why he will win again, this is precisely how his base sees themselves, rich , successful, surrounded by blonde women" [04:26]
sonOfRa (just asking because everyone seems to call literally everyone "younger than me" millenials) [04:27]
acuzio 22 to 26 [04:27]
sonOfRa fair [04:27]
selckin isn't it like 25-35 at least currently [04:27]
acuzio she is our marketing person and is constantly on slack talking politics and i sometimes take the bait [04:28]
acuzio we have a "general" channel thats sort of dedicated to this stuff [04:28]
acuzio The thing that is obvious as fucking day light is that The Donald has learnt how to change the media narrative , anytime anything potentially devastating is going to come out - he just goes on a racist or sexist or whatever rant and thats it. People forget. [04:31]
KekSi Researchers and popular media typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years. [04:31]
KekSi there, most people just use "millenial" to mean entitled brats [04:31]
KekSi while in reality it's pretty much all of us in this channel [04:31]
KekSi including me, being born in 1982 [04:32]
Faux If you'd rather use an app than a chauffeur/red carpet/free glass of champagne to get a rental car, you're a millennial. If you additionally know any fortnight dances you are GenZ, not a millennial. [04:32]
acuzio the NYTimes ran a fucking _huge_ story on how almost the entire Trump family has been cheating on taxes and using govt. funds. It was in the news for 1 day and is now almost entirely forgotten. [04:32]
Faux Unfortunately this makes acuzio a GenZ, but, y'know, exception, rule, proof. [04:32]
KekSi maybe should call it "everyone currently between 20 and 40 years of age" and suddenly it's pretty much all the actually productive people out there [04:34]
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puppy_za yeah but that's too wordy [04:39]
puppy_za news love a catchy word [04:40]
sonOfRa [04:47]
sonOfRa sonOfRa's title: "AI learns to solve a Rubik's Cube in 1.2 seconds" [04:47]
sonOfRa OMG AI [04:47]
sonOfRa We taught an AI to solve a rubik's cube, usually in less than 30 moves! [04:48]
Faux Ah, the "exhaustive search" AI. [04:48]
sonOfRa (What we don't mention here is that we already have non AI-algorithms that can solve literally any starting position of a rubik's cube in 20 or less moves) [04:48]
[twisti] yeah i thought that was a strange headline too when it came across my news feed [04:50]
[twisti] 1.2 seconds doesnt sound very FAST for a program to solve a rubix cube either [04:51]
selckin our ceo just wrote a full doc on how we use AI & ML for a new customer [04:57]
selckin we don't do anything with either [04:57]
sonOfRa interesting [05:05]
sonOfRa WH40K is getting a tv series? [05:05]
sonOfRa [05:05]
selckin cool, anyone good involved? [05:06]
sonOfRa Showrunner for Season 1 of Man in the High Castle apparently [05:09]
selckin promising [05:11]
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surial I dunno. [05:20]
surial Spotnitz got more or less fired from MitHC. Season 1 was stellar, so, clearly, it wasn't 'you suck at your job', more 'you are impossible to work with'. [05:20]
surial Or a coincidence, shit happens. [05:20]
surial Point being: I hear that the wh40000 folks (games workshop, is it?) are also impossible to work with. [05:21]
selckin perfect match then [05:21]
surial Sooooo, that might not go well. But maybe GW isn't involved in the day to day and it'll work out great. [05:21]
surial I have no idea what WH40k is, except that it's sometimes played in MtG stores (not ones I ever frequented though), and that the company behind it are a bunch of class A entitled fuckwits. [05:21]
dreamreal tabletop wargame a la D&D [05:22]
surial So, MtG is making a movie, warcraft made a movie, this is making a movie... I have my doubts on the intelligence of all this. [05:31]
selckin after that MCU money [05:32]
dreamreal money pressures on movie makers are like money pressures on media [05:32]
dreamreal anything to mitigate risk: people like Warhammer? Surely every one of them will love our movie about it! [05:33]
selckin lotr is going after GoT money right [05:33]
dreamreal after all, it is going to tell them the story they already seem to care about [05:33]
dreamreal selckin: there's a new LOTR movie/show/something? [05:33]
puppy_za by Amazon [05:33]
puppy_za a tv series, if I recall [05:34]
dreamreal hurin, I hope [05:34]
surial feels to me like: If the MtG movie (or wh40k or whatnot) movie is a success, it is a success despite its link to a community. The # of magic players that will see this movie on opening weekend whereas they wouldn't have done so if it was merely a high fantasy kinda movie that is NOT related to the mtg lore/brand is significant, but still small. Unless that boost in initial viewership then also translates in pushing the vibe [05:34]
surial coming off of opening weekend from 'it was fine' to 'must-see watercooler talk' levels, it doesn't matter at all. In the mean time, subtract how many random viewers [A] do NOT see it whereas they would have if it hadn't been mtg/wh40k/whatever related (because they think they need to understand something about wh40k/mtg/etc) [B] don't rate the movie highly because of that and/or [C] don't talk about it because it feels [05:34]
surial awkward to explain. [05:34]
surial So the benefits are hard to get aligned and the downsides seem much larger. And yet this many studios are diving in? Dafuq? [05:34]
sonOfRa dreamreal: second age [05:35]
selckin it probably also has an easier merch market [05:35]
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sonOfRa surial: I think games workshop kinda changed their policy towards their brand somewhat recently [05:35]
surial Also, movie studios are, like airline companies, in surial's idiot corner: Normally I assume market forces and general desire to make a difference imply most companies are doing a fair enough job trying to avoid sheer and utter moronics and any attempt to look back and go: Geez! Dumb! Is either selection bias or hindsight. But for a few markets, sheer and utter fucking retardedness is baked into the very fabric. [05:35]
sonOfRa There's been a large influx of games and other things they simply wouldn't have allowed previously [05:35]
sonOfRa And now people just wanna dive in [05:36]
surial So I'll take a: Yeah one company jumped off a cliff, died (warcraft), and the rest is compelled to jump anyway because morons. [05:36]
selckin MCU showed it can be done, so they all think they can do it [05:36]
dreamreal warcraft was HARDLY the first one at that [05:36]
surial dreamreal: oh, you mean like PoP, that other flop? And they were really trying I think. [05:37]
dreamreal I don't know what PoP is, but AD&D did it too [05:37]
surial the name of the PoP brand does not scream: 'This is game / something that means something to many people but not you', unlike 'the wh40k movie' or 'the mtg movie'. Warcraft is not as screechy as mtg/wh40k but pretty screechy at that. [05:38]
surial dreamreal: prince of persia [05:38]
dreamreal oh [05:38]
surial dreamreal: ad&d has a movie? From this decade? [05:38]
dreamreal I didn't see it [05:38]
dreamreal surial: I doubt it, because the failure from prior decades was so complete [05:38]
surial I kinda liked it. Blandish blockbustery thing; it was a straight up film translation of the plot of the game. [05:38]
selckin the movie being bad (tm) doesn't made they didn't double their money [05:38]
selckin *mean [05:39]
surial Well, challenge time, channel! Name video game based movies that were intended to at least try to be a big hit, from any decade. [05:39]
surial There's super mario the movie, doom the movie, warcraft, PoP... [05:39]
sonOfRa I mean, warcraft wasn't a good movie, but it was decent for what it was [05:40]
KekSi that should never have been turned into a movie anyway [05:41]
selckin tomb raider [05:42]
KekSi i somehow liked those movies and it's pretty much like indiana jones or something [05:42]
KekSi but i mean warcraft doesn't exactly lend itself to being turned into a movie [05:43]
KekSi starcraft would've worked a lot better imho [05:43]
KekSi since that'd pretty much be another starship troopers with protoss added :D [05:44]
Faux TRUMP [05:44]
selckin warcraft was too much sfx and too little story [05:45]
selckin just like GoT the better the sfx got the worse the show was [05:45]
KekSi well and the "characters" if you can call em that in the warcraft movie weren't exactly top tier for 2016 graphics-wise [05:47]
selckin the bar is also so insanely high now, it needs to be really outstanding to get the press & draw the big crowed [05:49]
selckin rewatched LoTR last week, and tbh i dodn't think it would do as well if it was released today [05:49]
dreamreal LOTR was a "watch once just so I can say I did it" for me [05:51]
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Faux Another good GenZ vs. millennial distinction is that millennials have but dislike facebook accounts, or go around and tell people how proud they are to have closed their facebook account (in 3.. 2... 1...), whereas GenZ people think facebook is for old people so never signed up. [06:35]
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scav Hey I closed mine, but I never told anyone [06:48]
scav Except I just did now [06:48]
Faux o [06:49]
selckin i never had one /flex [06:49]
db I closed my linkedin account [06:55]
db deal with it [06:55]
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selckin i figured out what bugs about twitters new desktop ui [07:02]
selckin its the font [07:02]
Faux selckin is.. disafonted. [07:03]
sonOfRa also the "load new tweets" thingy is blurry [07:04]
selckin font-family: system-ui, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Ubuntu, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; [07:06]
selckin everyone sees something else! [07:06]
KekSi i only made a fb account for the gym group when i joined that 2 years ago [07:26]
KekSi it has since spiraled to sort of a planning tool for meeting new ppl & going out drinking [07:26]
KekSi i'd much prefer i could use that as a standalone feature without a fb account but c'est la vie [07:27]
sonOfRa lmao [07:34]
sonOfRa Imagine literally offering a wash trading service for stocks [07:34]
selckin didn't help the microsoft guy [07:36]
sonOfRa hahaha [07:38]
sonOfRa Blizzard is forcing a role-lock in competitive overwatch [07:39]
sonOfRa You *have* to play with 2 supp, 2 tanks and 2 dps [07:39]
sonOfRa And they're also forcing seating arrangements. If players want to switch roles between maps, they actually have to switch seats [07:39]
selckin in the esport or also online? [07:43]
sonOfRa just in league play [07:43]
sonOfRa but still hilarious [07:43]
selckin its one of those games you need to have played to know whats going on like dota & league, but they never had the player numbers, they should give up [07:44]
sonOfRa Like, instead of properly balancing the game [07:45]
sonOfRa So that playing balanced teams is interesting [07:45]
sonOfRa They just *force* competitive players into roles. And then they also dictate the seating arrangements? That's just going to go *so wrong* because then they have to move around peripherals, settings, etc every time a team does a switch [07:46]
sonOfRa Because no pro player is going to play on someone else's settings or gear [07:46]
selckin sounds like they won't be allowed to switch, and fixed seating for camera setups etc i can maybe understand [07:47]
sonOfRa No, they *are* allowed to switch [07:47]
sonOfRa The rules explicitly say that players will switch seats if they switch roles between maps [07:47]
sonOfRa Not allowed to switch roles *on* a map, just between maps [07:48]
selckin don't know how they do the monitor stuff, but usualy each player has their own ssd disk and then just plugin in the keyboard? [07:49]
selckin should be instant swaps [07:49]
selckin must have monitors you can control from software or not be allowed to touch brightness etc [07:50]
selckin else has to be a nightmere for every game [07:51]
sonOfRa Heh, new keyboard arrived. They take the "gaming" seriously [07:53]
sonOfRa It comes with replacement keycaps for qwer asd 1234 [07:53]
selckin now what i want to see is someone patching cpu microcode or whatever to sabotage the oponents [07:55]
KidBeta selckin: microcode is nearly impossible to tamper with [07:55]
selckin sure i've read stories about how you should be able to put exploids in ring -2 bios eufi microcode whatever that can't be removed [07:56]
KidBeta thats not microcode thats firmware. [07:57]
KidBeta microcode are patches that are literally loaded into the cpu at boot [07:57]
selckin ah cool, also for other hardware sometimes right? [07:58]
KidBeta sure, you could microcode anything [07:58]
KidBeta but on desktop cpus they have strong cryptography backing them [07:59]
KidBeta a quantum computer might have some luck though [07:59]
selckin if they give you acces to a computer and an hour later your strongest oponent plays on it, with a new harddrive & reboot, could you do anything that persists? [08:00]
KidBeta yes [08:00]
KidBeta flash it with coreboot [08:00]
KidBeta that might be a little noticeable though :P [08:01]
KidBeta you could try downgrading the firmware to a known vulnerable state and loading a bunch of vulnerable stuff [08:02]
sonOfRa Oh this keyboard will take some getting used to [08:02]
sonOfRa It's a lot denser than my old one [08:02]
selckin wonder if how hard they check for those fake usb mouses that move the cursor randomly [08:03]
KidBeta easy [08:03]
KidBeta physically check [08:03]
selckin aye, but do they! [08:04]
KidBeta your better of writing some malware thats gets onto the machine that occasionally slightly changes the mouse movements [08:04]
KidBeta once you get initial access itd be easy [08:07]
selckin googled some article where the mouse claimed its a keyboard, wrote out the hack in text editor and run it, that feels like childs play tho, must be able to do something way cooler :) [08:09]
KidBeta with physical access it shouldn't be too hard [08:09]
KidBeta just need to chain a initial access exploit -> windows priv esc -> kernel driver install [08:10]
sonOfRa Oh neat, there's linux software these days that allows control over the LEDs on logitech keyboards [08:28]
KidBeta selckin: do they used wireless kb / mouse. [08:30]
selckin doubtful, no lag! [08:33]
sonOfRa It's not like that anymore [08:34]
sonOfRa There's a few CSGO pros these days who play wireless [08:34]
selckin then its for interfernce generation from the audience (and get arrested for terrorism) [08:34]
selckin +time [08:35]
KekSi way-back-when you could definitely tell the difference between 125 and 1000Hz but i had serious trouble telling whether it's laggy or not with a mx1000 laser mouse [08:35]
sonOfRa I know of at least NBK that plays with the logitech g903, probably other pros with wireless devices as well [08:35]
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sonOfRa surial: so, we had the discussion about the whole franchising/tight grip of companies on the game a while back. Blizzard (overwatch) just did another thing that makes it obvious (at least to me) that the way valve handles tournaments (hands off approach) is a lot better: Imagine a football league going "From now on, every team has to play 4-4-2. No other compositions allowed" [08:47]
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surial sonOfRa: I see absolutely no problem with any of this. [08:50]
selckin F1 is example of hands on tho [08:50]
sonOfRa surial: It's an attempt to fix a broken meta [08:51]
surial sonOfRa: nor with a football league decreeing a lockdown of 4-4-2, _ASSUMING_ that the lockdown applies explicitly and solely to tangibles. [08:51]
sonOfRa What you do if your meta highly skews towards a certain play style and you don't like it, what you should do is... fix it. [08:52]
sonOfRa Make your other classes *useful* [08:52]
sonOfRa Dictating that certain classes must be used is lazy [08:52]
surial Which with football is a lot harder to say. So, really, what would be fine is if FIFA decreed that they have a map of a football field with 22 circles on it, and each and every player MUST be assigned to a circle, must start within one at kickoff, after a half, and after a goal, and a player can't change circles. or whatever. [08:52]
surial Those are tangible. [08:52]
surial 'you must have 2 attackers' is not tangible. Unless they make it tangible: Henceforth only players designated as 'attackers' in the lineup fielded before kick off MUST be the last player on your team to have touched the ball prior to it going in a goal for it to count as a goal for your team. [08:53]
surial Which ,if they did that, fine with me. [08:53]
surial sonOfRa: but you're not making sense on this. [08:53]
surial sonOfRa: Yes, of course, if some meta is powerful, you fix it. And how do you fix it? By making rules and changing the game. [08:53]
surial Making a decree about compositions IS making rules. THey are doing what you want them to do. [08:53]
sonOfRa Err, *fixing* a problem by decreeing it doesn't exist anymore is not fixing the problem [08:54]
sonOfRa Because that's what forcing players into those roles is [08:55]
surial Whether this move is CORRECT is another matter entirely. The approach can be fine, and the execution can suck, but then, execution can suck whichever way you try to slice this chicken. Let's say that overwatch/blizzard had gone with the valve-ish handsoffy approach, and would try to address some issue where some meta is obnoxious (obnoxious = boring to watch, low skill level, unlikely to lead to interesting games, but hard [08:55]
surial to beat - some combination of those factors) by tweaking some hero's stats. [08:55]
surial You can fuck that up too, just the same. [08:55]
surial it's not. [08:55]
surial Blizzard has decreed that the game now is such that it's not a legal move to start with less tha n2 damage hoeres. [08:55]
surial That's a game rule now. [08:55]
surial We can then discuss on specifics. FOr example (and I have _NO_ idea how overwatch works): Let's say this 2/2/2 rule applies only to pro play and not to normal games. [08:55]
surial I would strenuously advise against any attempt to introduce pro-only rules that could be applied to normal games but aren't. [08:56]
surial Take a page from the FIFA handbook on that one: Whereever possible attempt to make the game play and feel as much as you can like 9 orphans in the favelas in rio de janeiro if you can. [08:56]
sonOfRa This is the case [08:56]
sonOfRa You can play 6 tanks in non pro play if you wanna [08:56]
surial This makes the game resonate more with the playerbase. [08:56]
sonOfRa (also what the fuck is with the seating arrangement bullshit) [08:57]
surial sonOfRa: right, so I would argue, NOT based on this what you consider 'heavyhanded approach', but solely based on this 'different rules for pros either because we're stupid or because we cant be arsed to update the client to enforce this shit right now' notion ? that blizzard is making a mistake. [08:57]
surial but had they updated the client to enforce these comp rules I see zero issue with the principle. Perhaps, again, execution ? but that feels like the miscommunication between us two. [08:57]
surial It feels like you feel the principle is wrong. I'm saying the principle is just peachy fine, though, as with almost all things, you can still fuck up on execution. But whilst you and I may then both agree this is a boneheaded move, we'd be doing so for _ENTIRELY_ different reasons. [08:58]
sonOfRa I mean, I also think it's dumb because it needlessly restricts innovative approaches from teams [08:59]
surial to bring it into contexts I understand better: In league of Legends, pro play has a few rules that aren't shared by non-pro play. 2 Notable examples: [1] players must be seated from left to right in order: Support, bot carry, mid, jungler, top. However, these are just words. THe jungler is not forced to actually take smite (the jungle summoner spell that all junglers ordinarily take), nor buy a jungle item as first buy. The [09:00]
surial top is not forced to move to the top side of the map. [09:00]
surial So, really, all riot has done is say: Sit your players however the fuck you feel like, but note that the person you place rightmost is to be called 'top'. [09:00]
surial sonOfRa: no, that thought of yours makes NO SENSE. [09:00]
surial this isn't football. It's a tuned, heavyhanded game, and valve's approach is just as heavyhanded. [09:01]
surial Take overwatch: D'va or whatever (That's an overwatch hero right?) has a stat for how much damage her attacks do and how often she can shoot or whatever. [09:01]
surial That's a dial. Someone set it to a specific value. [09:01]
surial Games like this have half a million dials. Soccer has a few hundred at most. [09:01]
[twisti] i always meant to make an MMO where stuff like that balances itself dynamically based on peoples use [09:02]
surial Given that there are half a million dials and given that the game is being updated (we can discuss whether a game like this should be LOCKED DOWN with no changes of any sort or kind, and no new heroes or anything else, for YEARS, but I bet that's not gonna be a game that's ognna go far), you MUST tweak the dials a bit as you update the game. [09:02]
surial And the person at the controls? _THEY ARE THE HEAVY HAND_. If a bunch of pro teams are making some champ work in a role it wasn't intended to do, playing it in a way that makes no sense, and is impossible to do right without the coaching and coordination afforded solely to pro or at least VERY tight knit pro teams..... what do you call it when they tweak the dials on this champ way down? [09:03]
surial I say it makes NO DIFFERENCE. [09:03]
selckin [twisti]: you mean unbalances itself by people exploiting the system [09:04]
[twisti] that actually happened once, in a game called asherons call: the game sported a magic system with 7 cookie cutter elements (fire, cold, acid, lightning and slash, pierce and bludgeon). you could do magic spells that did damage of the element type, with every spell being the same strength, and you could do protection against all elements, again with the same protection against each element. [09:04]
[twisti] in theory, the strengths of the different elements should have all been equal [09:04]
[twisti] but it didnt work out like that - there were a lot of monsters that did acid damage, for example, so a lot of people used protection against acid. but few things did lightning, so that protection was rarely used in pve [09:04]
surial so, given that you must be heavyhanded anyway, there is no real difference in principle between how valve does it and how blizard or riot do it. Except perhaps that by not bothering with such bullshit as 'we don't wanna mess with direct control of the meta', riot and such are better at making the game fun; valve has handicapped itself for no discernible benefit. [09:04]
sonOfRa surial: I don't know how big changes to heroes in lol are, but in cs, changes to guns, or nades, or maps, are generally minor. [09:05]
[twisti] so in pvp, lightning based attacks were better than acid based ones [09:05]
sonOfRa Saying "we're going to ban pros from experimenting with strategy" is *a big fucking dial* [09:05]
sonOfRa Because that's what this is. Forcing the game into 2-2-2 kills the *potential* for variety [09:05]
[twisti] what did i miss ? what are pros actually getting banned for ? [09:05]
selckin think the dial is try to keep it understandable for viewers [09:06]
surial sonOfRa: but given that the game better be tweaked well, even am inor change has huge effects. in LoL if you say: Champ X now deals 4 damage less at level 1, but gains 0.75 damage per level more than they used to, that sounds small (you deal like 75 to 80 damage at level 1 normally). Yet this change completely changes the game. [09:06]
surial so, when you say 'only minor changes', I.. conclude that 'minor' in this context conveys absolutely no meaning to me. [09:06]
sonOfRa [twisti]: not *banned for*, but in overwatch, pros are now forced to play 2 damage dealers, 2 tanks and 2 supporters [09:06]
surial sonOfRa: Yes, of course, this feels like a wrong way to do it. [09:06]
[twisti] sounds dumb [09:06]
surial sonOfRa: my point isn't "this isnt boneheaded". My point is: "The principle of laying down the rules like this is fine, but, was this the best way to accomplish the goal?" And I don't know enough overwatch to state that this was bad. [09:07]
surial One thing that keeps happening in LoL is that you get a strategy which some call 'cheese', some call a 'perversion': A way that the game wasn't designed around and is generally not fun to watch which is hard to beat. [09:07]
selckin i always liked starcraft cheese [09:08]
surial You get a lot of interesting research around it. Because the strategy usually means the key players piloting them have a significantly lower skill ceiling, the skill differentation drops: Bad teams can win from the good ones with it. so the good teams start using their own creativity to fix it. [09:08]
sonOfRa If a gun, or a character, for some reason, is overpowered, then you *fix the character, or the gun* [09:08]
sonOfRa You don't say "oh you're only allowed to use that gun once in a game" [09:08]
surial And sometimes some amazing answer is found and brings it back into line in time. but if the pros don't get there fast enough, riot steps in, takes a club, and smashes the FUCK out of the strat. Not with al ight hand either. [09:08]
surial Like: "That item yall are abusing here? Fuck you it now no longer works if you're alone" (in answer to some support item being used by midlaners, and completely bonkers heavy handed). [09:09]
surial And it was A GOOD CHANGE. [09:09]
surial because the 'meta' was boring as fuck and the attempts to innovate around it were kinda working, but were pushing the game in an entirely different, possibly even more boring direction. [09:09]
surial It's a complex system. you tweak your overpowered gun down to proper power level and now some OTHER Gun is overpowered because of this change. so then you fix that and it's like whack-a-mole. too many variables. it's a chaotic system. [09:10]
surial It's better to use tweakage to make the item or hero or whatnot fall in line generally, but from time to time you need to take out the 'heavy adjustment' club and bash some meta right the fuck down, because wasting time figuring out how to tweak it is too hard and even if you could, you should be spending that tweak time fixing more insidious boringness in the game. [09:11]
surial FWIW I think riot is doing an _excellent_ job at this for league and is presumably one of the reasons lol keeps on hitting the top spot. [09:11]
surial Presumably blizzard here did TRY to tweak. But at some point someone stands up and says: Fundamentally teh problem is: This entire game so far has been balanced around a 2damage/2tank/2sup setup so therefore we MUST balance the game such that any change in comp unless as an exceedingly specific answer to something should lose vs. that 2/2/2 arrangement ? but that is hard and we keep making the game play badly because of [09:14]
surial the difficulty of ensuring that. At which point you try to think if you can balance the game around a more open composition strat, and, hey, perhaps other comps aren't fun to play and yet can be powerful. So maybe at some point you go: OOHHH FUCK IT! We hardcode the comp in. dooone. (Now, they should PRONTO fix the soloqueue client to enforce it too or you get 2 similar but unrelated games :pro overwatch and normal [09:14]
surial overwatch. and that's not good. nobody wants to watch a game they cannot play themselves. [09:14]
sonOfRa I mean, they *desperately* need more viewers [09:17]
sonOfRa And they kinda just keep making things worse [09:17]
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surial sonOfRa: I'd blame execution and leave it at that. And, hey, if shit you're trying aint working? I respect stepping across certain lines. Maybe they're perfectly well aware this kind of lockdown is probably not good, but, hey, they tried the other stuff already and it did not work. [09:21]
selckin blizzard is dead, they are going mobile p2w for the final run [09:21]
surial yup, something I keep trying to tell Roel (who plays heartstone) [09:21]
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KekSi where's the times of quake 1/world? where rocketlauncher and shaft pretty much ruled supreme? [09:38]
KekSi spawnrape/insta-kills when you don't have timing on RA/mega :p [09:38]
dreamreal I keep wanting to try doom 2016 in multiplayer but I'd have to change my player nick to "target" [09:39]
KekSi i have that for ps4 at home -- never even bothered trying out the MP [09:39]
selckin aren't really any fast paced shooters anymore :( diabotical by 2GD is the last hope if its ever released [09:39]
KidBeta KekSi: the single player was amazing. [09:40]
dreamreal apparently doom 2016 emphasizes hit and run, slow progress will get you killed deader'n dead, which means I'd suck at it [09:40]
fotato Doom16 mp was... not that great. [09:40]
KekSi i'm sort-of good-ish at FPS on consoles (once you're able to use the controls much of my childhood pc gaming reigns supreme) [09:41]
selckin deck16 instagib++ [09:41]
dreamreal It inpsired me to write music that was absolutely nothing like the doom soundtrack this morning though... [09:41]
fotato Ah did you watch the documentary about the soundtrack? [09:41]
fotato They started being given a bunch of rules [09:41]
fotato And one by one they broke them :-D [09:42]
fotato Might have been a talk, let me find it. Worth a watch [09:42]
KekSi i loved doom but i think my MP experience started with q1/qw then hldm, cs (since beta 3), still qw on the side, q3 cpm and ra3, more cs, UT and UT03/04 for a bit in between but cs stuck even long after css came out and about a year after qlive was released (and most other quake scenes started falling apart) i quit pc gaming [09:43]
fotato yeah it was a GDC talk [09:43]
fotato fotato's title: "DOOM: Behind the Music - YouTube" [09:43]
fotato dreamreal: ^ [09:43]
KekSi also sc:bw and some sc2 occasionally but nowhere as much as qw, cs & q3 [09:43]
KidBeta my favorite thing about the game is how the music responds to you brutally murdering people [09:44]
dreamreal fotato: soundtrack for doom 2016? I haven't- I know the original soundtracks were *awesome* though [09:44]
fotato oh dude [09:44]
fotato the doom16 soundtrack is _epic_ [09:44]
fotato watch this talk, it's fucking awesome. [09:44]
KekSi i thought doom 2016 was just a generic shooter [09:44]
KekSi nothing innovative about it [09:45]
fotato oh fuck right off. [09:45]
KekSi just "meh" [09:45]
fotato fuck RIGHT off. [09:45]
KekSi same with halo when that came out -- never understood how that had such a huge fandom [09:45]
fotato which FPS before DOOM16 encouraged killing more monsters as a response to having low health? [09:45]
KekSi uhm cs mods i suppose? qw and q3 mods aswell? [09:46]
fotato it literally inverted the fight/hide/recharge loop that's been having since.... Halo introduced that and _also_ revolutionised the fucking FPS [09:46]
fotato what the fucking fuck, KekSi [09:46]
KekSi ra3 had a mode that would tick down your health and you gained health by killing ppl :D [09:46]
fotato yeah, not remotely as balanced. [09:46]
KidBeta my only want is to be able to control the chainsaw more. [09:46]
fotato but anyway, watch that talk. [09:47]
dreamreal doom 2016 looks BEAUTIFUL [09:50]
dreamreal the gameplay is doom-like [09:50]
dreamreal the soundtrack is effective. I want to say Quake 2 had the best soundtrack - but I dunno [09:51]
fotato it's _reminiscent_ of doom classic. but it's really, really different. [09:52]
fotato that's what they did so well. [09:52]
dreamreal yeah. [09:52]
dreamreal and imps aren't static targets, which is kinda neat [09:52]
fotato i mean, quake 2 was reznor, wasn't it? [09:53]
dreamreal I thought that was the sonic distortion one [09:53]
dreamreal super-compressed metal soundtrack? [09:53]
fotato sonic mayhem [09:53]
fotato yeah [09:53]
fotato mixed up [09:53]
dreamreal ah, thank you [09:53]
fotato if only for the soundtrack, you should play doom 2016 [09:54]
dreamreal but yeah, THAT one was the one was awesome. [09:54]
dreamreal And... I *do* play doom 2016! That's why I said it was beautiful! [09:54]
fotato ah hah ok [09:54]
fotato doom... infinite? the sequel? is looking amazing too [09:55]
fotato eternal. duh [09:56]
surial hmm, mabbe I need a gaming PC. [09:59]
surial I don't think I'm playing doom2016 on a 13" macbook regardless of how much money I'd spend on it. [09:59]
selckin borderlands 3 is coming out, good excuse [09:59]
fotato hell, there's a switch port of it, selckin [09:59]
fotato uh. surial [10:00]
surial lol runs great, older games and gog stuff works out allright. I have The Witcher, that barely runs. [10:00]
fotato there's a switch port of witcher! [10:00]
surial ooh, switch port. I also kinda wanna see what that zelda game is all about. [10:00]
fotato cadence of hyrule and botw are both _excellent_ [10:00]
fotato but perhaps wait on the release of the lite, and the one with the better battery life [10:00]
fotato or even the moar upgraded one. [10:00]
surial Crucially I have zero TVs here. I have a thingie with a thunderbolt/USB-C connector, and a thingie with what macbook airs 2011 have. thunderbolt2? [10:01]
surial and then smallish computer screens with DVI. Don't think I can feasibly shove a switch at any of that. [10:01]
fotato so buy the switch lite. handheld only. [10:01]
surial I guess that'll do the trick. I was kinda wanting to play on a big screen but, eh. [10:02]
fotato common story with the 'impossible' ports (and to a wider extent, switch games in general) is 'handheld mode is borderline unbelievable, but on tv it suffers' [10:02]
surial huh. So, ditch the issues with hooking it all up and consider it a nuevo gameboy it is then [10:03]
KekSi i think q1 and q2 both had really excellent soundtracks [10:04]
fotato i should, uh, play q1 and q2. [10:04]
fotato i think my first fps was hl [10:04]
fotato set a pretty fucking high bar for me [10:04]
dreamreal I miss Lode Runner as a game. There's an iOS port of it that's... okay but ... no [10:05]
surial I kinda liked q1. q2 is _GREAT_ though. [10:05]
KekSi actually i went on vacation with a mate some years and years ago (to the netherlands in a cabrio) and we had 4 CDs with us: the q1 and q2 soundtracks and the 2cd sensation white album :D [10:05]
dreamreal Quake 2 was amazing, yeah [10:06]
KekSi q1 soundtrack was trent reznor / nine inch nails (the nailgun ammo boxes even have the NIN logo on them) [10:06]
KekSi D [10:06]
KekSi i didn't like q2 MP that much (it did bring good new maps that eventually made it to qw and q3 and ra3 in particular) and stuck with qw back then [10:07]
KekSi dm6 <3 <3 <3 [10:07]
selckin spotify won't let me play q2 soundstrack :( [10:07]
KekSi youtube definitely will [10:07]
KekSi anyway, going home [10:09]
KekSi laters [10:09]
freeone3000 I'm buying the switch lite because it fits in a pocket and that's really all I wanted in a new 3DS. [10:09]
freeone3000 hold on they're painting the inquisitors as the good guys? geez. [10:12]
freeone3000 It's 2019 and everybody sees the Imperial Guard as a thin veneer over Boer-era imperialism with a dash of WWI tech thrown in [10:13]
freeone3000 also "escalated to the point that Kvashuk, on a base salary of $116,000 per year, bought himself a $162,000 Tesla and $1.6m home in Renton" ... you can just do that that's how credit works [10:15]
freeone3000 that's like saying someone making $30k a year bought a Nissan Versa and a condo. [10:16]
freeone3000 It's a stretch but it's not like, impossible. [10:16]
freeone3000 also 33 people dead in kyoani arson, so there's that. [10:19]
Faux HATE CRIME [10:20]
freeone3000 you can't have a hate crime in japan, there aren't any minorities [10:20]
fotato um. [10:21]
freeone3000 They tried REALLY HARD to make sure there aren't any minorities [10:21]
fotato .... um. [10:21]
fotato why is there a superscript BE on my youtube logo? [10:21]
freeone3000 Are you in belgium? [10:22]
fotato i am not. [10:22]
fotato i'm about as far from belgium as you can get. [10:22]
selckin top right profile icon -> location -> set to belgium [10:23]
fotato how odd. [10:24]
selckin apple 30mil a month to aws, not bad [10:28]
fotato we spend like ~1m [10:29]
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Faux [10:33]
selckin is that britney [10:35]
fotato no it's some trump spokeswhore. [10:36]
Faux Who acuzio will have the hots for when she's 40 in about 30 years time. [10:39]
fotato why wait? faceapp [10:51]
freeone3000 Yay, my MS Inspire demo went well! [10:59]
freeone3000 Thousands of salespeople stared at a PDF on a website, and clapped politely! [10:59]
fotato i saw your message about it last night but i forgot to respond. congrats, freeone3000 ! [11:13]
freeone3000 Thanks! [11:16]
selckin kus van de juf en bank vooruit [11:26]
ron "I was going through your code base on google.Could you share your code base or GIT link for reference?" [11:34]
dreamreal ron: heh [11:36]
waz congrats for what? [11:37]
ron [16:57:52] <freeone3000> Yay, my demo was at MS Inspire and it went well! [11:38]
dreamreal <-- inspired by Doom 2016, since I mentioned it earlier here [11:43]
dreamreal dreamreal's title: "Dropbox - Dream_Real-Rebuild-Ignored.mp3 - Simplify your life" [11:43]
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selckin are there any stats on battery fires? [02:03]
selckin there are so many batteries in my house, i'm really paranoid about it [02:03]
fotato my cousins's house (mostly) burned down thanks to some chinesium chargers [02:04]
freeone3000 NPFA has one for industrial storage, and claims they're the same type of hazard as sawdust or flour. [02:19]
freeone3000 Ooh, is specifically about e-cig fires, but should be generalizable to all lithium fires. Looks like 5% of all fires were generally considered "fires" instead of "things that happened and then went away on their own", with 97 incidents out of $3,000,000,000 of sales. [02:22]
freeone3000 ...that's... okay that's ridiculously safe. [02:22]
freeone3000 less safe than non-electronic fires, but more safe than cooking. [02:24]
Faux There's a big difference between certified and non-certified things. [02:24]
Faux I had a chinesium thing get hot enough to burn humans on first charge, not realising it was not protected. [02:25]
freeone3000 (the above is for e-cigs! home of "a lithium cell's a lithium cell, the protection circuit is useless and expensive"!) [02:25]
freeone3000 but uh. yeah. look for UL/CE on your chargers. [02:25]
freeone3000 know the difference between a battery and a battery cell, and don't buy the second one, even if it's half the price of the first one and looks the same. [02:26]
Faux I don't own a single rechargable battery that isn't inside a device with custom hardware. [02:27]
Faux CE means "chinese export" fwiw. [02:28]
freeone3000 not in the EEA it doesn't [02:29]
Faux I bet the non-brand power bank I had delivered on PRIME DAY today, which has a Chinese Export mark on, is not CE certified. [02:30]
Faux It didn't catch fire during the test charge, but it is outrageously rated. [02:30]
freeone3000 yeah, well, report them to amazon who'll pull the product and force them to start another front for selling the same shit. [02:31]
Faux Why? CE is just Chinese Export. [02:33]
freeone3000 It's not. [02:33]
Faux Is it legally protected? Is it a trademark in China? [02:38]
Faux The angry youtube people think UL is not even a real test either; only shitty things go to UL. [02:38]
freeone3000 Angry youtube people should look at a fire extinguisher. [02:39]
freeone3000 UL is frequently used by people who don't have an in-house testing lab for reliability. [02:40]
selckin well soon you won't be in EU, so it won't be, rawr [02:40]
freeone3000 Nothing is legally protected in China, so whatever, but it's legally protected in Europe. [02:40]
[twisti] [03:02]
freeone3000 [twisti]: Holy shit that cheap? [03:03]
freeone3000 Could *I* buy a congressman? [03:04]
[twisti] well thats just on the record stuff [03:04]
[twisti] so who knows [03:04]
ron why did they break java [03:05]
[twisti] they did ? [03:05]
ron well [03:06]
ron I remember those weird days [03:06]
ron that you compiled java 5 code [03:07]
ron and then when java 6 came out, you could compile with that [03:07]
ron and java 7 [03:07]
ron and 8 [03:07]
ron but then, java 9, 10, 12 came, and shit started hitting the fan [03:07]
selckin all for a feature nobody uses [03:07]
Bombe Some stuff didn?t compile with Java 6 that did compile with Java 5, though. [03:14]
Bombe (Or from 6 to 7?) [03:15]
ron I never experienced such issues. Now it feels like every new version something breaks. [03:15]
Faux I'm pretty furious that e.g. derpwizard hasn't worked around the modules insanity. [03:21]
[twisti] im going to steal that [03:23]
freeone3000 bureaucracy wrangling yay [03:59]
waz ron vs acuzio is <reply> [04:07]
waz OK, waz. [04:07]
Bombe Amazingly accurate. [04:09]
fotato no, ron vs acuzio is <reply> [04:10]
fotato OK, fotato. [04:10]
fotato looks out for the shitty connections [04:10]
fotato it's a shame it doesn't loop cleanly [04:13]
freeone3000 Quarterly earnings for the final quarter of 2019 are in. We exceeded expectations for the fifth straight quarter, which must make analysts really mad. [04:14]
fotato another tesla for you! [04:15]
freeone3000 like. a model 3, maybe. [04:15]
fotato poor you. [04:15]
Faux 1/3rd of a wedding for you. [04:19]
freeone3000 I honestly would have been pretty excited no matter what it was [04:49]
freeone3000 Set name: Throne of Eldraine. Set code: MTGELD [04:52]
freeone3000 Not MTGTOE, sadly. [04:52]
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Faux today's Pom Of The Day (see the bottom). [05:01]
Faux Faux's title: "AWS X-Ray Recorder Core" [05:01]
ron wat [05:03]
lucidian parted the channel: [05:05]
Faux Is <foo>/></foo> valid xml? Chrome and xmllint accept it. :( [05:08]
Faux I guess it is and I will go jump off a bridge. [05:09]
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